| 11 Mar 2024 |
 joepie91 🏳️🌈 | an important factor here is that Anduril publicly profiles itself as a tech startup, not as an arms dealer, and that is usually an effective moral cover in tech spaces | 21:54:02 |
 @arianvp:matrix.org | Anduril's founder Palmer also loves drama by the way. | 21:55:06 |
| @arianvp:matrix.org | He's very good at stirring the pot | 21:55:19 |
 Shalok Shalom | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
I think we can expect board members to take the time to understand the topic, with the letter as a guide; but that same expectation does not really fly for, say, random redditors How is that topic not yet well understood? What is there left to understand? I think its more an issue of "we dont care" or that they are actively in favor of it. How is there a possible case of misunderstanding? | 21:55:20 |
| Shalok Shalom | Good to know. | 21:55:32 |
| Shalok Shalom | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
an important factor here is that Anduril publicly profiles itself as a tech startup, not as an arms dealer, and that is usually an effective moral cover in tech spaces Sounds like something that can be included in the letter. And I agree, that this might be an issue, at least if not proactively dealt with. | 21:56:38 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | In reply to @shalokshalom:dendrite.matrix.org
How is that topic not yet well understood? What is there left to understand? I think its more an issue of "we dont care" or that they are actively in favor of it. How is there a possible case of misunderstanding? to a lot of people in tech especially, the concept of "defense contractors" is an abstract concept at best. "they help us stay safe, right? and they fund a lot of good research" is a common response to concerns about them. likewise, as soon as a company calls itself a tech company, to many tech folks it is automatically exempt from moral consideration, because "this is tech, not politics, there's good and bad uses for every technology" etc.; the harsh reality is that a lot of people in tech simply do not share the premise that arms dealers are problematic, and do not know much (and don't want to know much) about what arms dealers actually do. in practice that's going to mean a lot of "surely it can't be that bad, you must be overreacting" responses when that worldview is threatened by claims of things being Bad, Actually | 21:58:36 |
|  @paultrial:banditlair.com joined the room. | 21:58:58 |
| Shalok Shalom | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
to a lot of people in tech especially, the concept of "defense contractors" is an abstract concept at best. "they help us stay safe, right? and they fund a lot of good research" is a common response to concerns about them. likewise, as soon as a company calls itself a tech company, to many tech folks it is automatically exempt from moral consideration, because "this is tech, not politics, there's good and bad uses for every technology" etc.; the harsh reality is that a lot of people in tech simply do not share the premise that arms dealers are problematic, and do not know much (and don't want to know much) about what arms dealers actually do. in practice that's going to mean a lot of "surely it can't be that bad, you must be overreacting" responses when that worldview is threatened by claims of things being Bad, Actually I think thats very much an US thing, then | 21:59:05 |
| @arianvp:matrix.org | by the way I'm in the camp i'm conflicted but not opposed to Anduril associating itself with NixOS. I have no problems with them using and contributing to nixos. Neither to them donating. However I have some reservations actively promoting them on e.g. a conference. I'm happy to proofread anything to give my perspective. If it convinced me it might have high chances convincing others too | 21:59:32 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | it's definitely more prevalent in the US, but that does not mean that it is not going to be a problem in terms of public response | 21:59:50 |
| Shalok Shalom | Particulary in todays day and age, with the war in Ukraine and the ethical cleansing in Gaza, should that topic be not that opaque. | 22:00:27 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | it shouldn't, but it unfortunately is | 22:01:12 |
| Shalok Shalom | I dont know the polls around tech people, but even the public in the US sees these two conflicts critical, also in terms of arms contractors. | 22:01:10 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | there are decades of propaganda that we're effectively having to deal with, after all | 22:01:30 |
| Shalok Shalom | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
it's definitely more prevalent in the US, but that does not mean that it is not going to be a problem in terms of public response Yeah, you are absolutely right. I am probably used to the different mindset in Europe. | 22:01:38 |
| @arianvp:matrix.org | I was quite pacifistic before the war in Ukraine. Not anymore since that started. I think many people changed their mind on that in Europe since the start of the war | 22:02:40 |
| Shalok Shalom | And considering the tech scene is usually strongly connected with the protection of minorities, I assumed that expands to critical thinking about the arms industry. (Since those fields are absolutely connected here) | 22:02:46 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | I would definitely not say that the tech scene is strongly connected with protecting minorities. that is only really true in a limited set of communities | 22:03:18 |
| Shalok Shalom | In reply to @arianvp:matrix.org
I was quite pacifistic before the war in Ukraine. Not anymore since that started. I think many people changed their mind on that in Europe since the start of the war Yeah, since its personal now. You also see that with the refugees. Once people feel in danger, they quickly change their mind. | 22:03:22 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | the tech world as a whole is still a minefield | 22:03:29 |
| Shalok Shalom | See the polls in Finnland to the application for the NATO. | 22:03:42 |
 @patka_123:matrix.org | There are a lot of good opinions in this thread: https://discourse.nixos.org/t/should-organizations-relating-to-the-defense-sector-being-able-to-sponsor-nixos/41252 | 22:03:56 |
|  @networkexception:chat.upi.li joined the room. | 22:03:59 |
| Shalok Shalom | Turned from like 40% or less for it, into the opposite within weeks. | 22:04:03 |
 @janik0:matrix.org | joepie91 🏳️🌈Shalok Shalom and everyone else please stay on topic | 22:04:28 |
| Shalok Shalom | yep | 22:04:39 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | the way we ended up on this topic to begin with, was the question of who to direct a signatory letter at - directing it at the general public as an open letter is essentially banking on a wide enough understanding and recognition of the problem that this will not backfire | 22:07:39 |
| Shalok Shalom | Do we have knowledge of past actions of this company, that we could use as evidenceß | 22:08:36 |
| Shalok Shalom | * Do we have knowledge of past actions of this company, that we could use as evidence? | 22:08:42 |
