 | NixOS Foundation | 456 Members |
| Public room for chatting with the NixOS Foundation Board | 114 Servers |
| NixOS Foundation | 456 Members |
| Public room for chatting with the NixOS Foundation Board | 114 Servers |
| Sender | Message | Time |
|---|---|---|
| 27 Apr 2024 | ||
 eaon | In reply to @niksnut:matrix.org Tvix is not (yet) a for-profit project nor does it advocate for its use other than for purposes of experimentation. DetSys' positioning is obviously very, different, wouldn't you agree? To act as if your implicit power in the project (as a still very much present creator) has no bearing on how DetSys positioning is perceived is simply either really naïve or disingenuous. As a relative newcomer, DetSys' output has repeatedly confused me, because as opposed to just advocating for change internally you advocate to users directly. The steering of folks to your Discord is just the most recent example. | 10:53:37 |
| eaon | * Tvix is not (yet) a for-profit project nor does it advocate for its use other than for purposes of experimentation. DetSys' positioning is obviously very different, wouldn't you agree? To act as if your implicit power in the project (as a still very much present creator) has no bearing on how DetSys positioning is perceived is simply either really naïve or disingenuous. As a relative newcomer, DetSys' output has repeatedly confused me, because as opposed to just advocating for change internally you advocate to users directly. The steering of folks to your Discord is just the most recent example. | 10:54:27 |
| eaon | I'd really encourage everyone to read The Tyranny of Structurelessness by Jo Freeman. What is unfolding here is a classic example of what she described decades ago. None of this is a new phenomenon. | 10:58:45 |
 Claes | I am really confused by all allegations towards Determinate Systems, and that their actions are somehow illegitimate or conspicuous. There are hundreds of examples of companies seeing opportunity in an open source ecosystem, trying to sell services or a product around it while also sharing it under a free license. This is a good thing! It grows the use and mindshare, it stimulates innovation and so forth. | 11:01:38 |
 infinisil | Totally fine selling products around Nix, a lot of companies do that and I have no issues with it | 11:09:20 |
| eaon | Same. That is not at all what I'm getting at. | 11:10:18 |
| infinisil | DetSys seems to be trying to sell Nix itself, not just products on top of it.. | 11:10:47 |
| infinisil | Especially the third-party Flakes stability promise when you use _their_ Nix installer, directly going against the efforts of the Nix team trying to stabilise Flakes | 11:12:11 |
| infinisil | E.g. see https://github.com/NixOS/nix/pull/10603#discussion_r1581048278 | 11:13:02 |
| Claes | In reply to @infinisil:matrix.orgBut is not that the same as what for example Red Hat does? They sell a stability promise, they create their own patches towards the kernel, they upstream them but also maintain them in their own distribution What they sell is their distribution. Cannot DetSys be seen as selling a kind of distribution of NixOS? A relation similar to what Ubuntu has towards Debian? | 11:21:02 |
| infinisil | This is different because Flakes is an experimental feature, which explicitly allows making breaking changes to it (has to happen with a notice period though, due to so many people using it). This is in direct conflict with keeping it stable | 11:24:41 |
| infinisil | Imo, DetSys should acknowledge this fact and actively support the Nix team with stabilisation. They can take all the glory once they actually help stabilise something, but not before that | 11:29:29 |
 @joepie91:pixie.town | In reply to @arianvp:matrix.orgI would like to note that for half of that "past decade" we've already had serious moderation problems which I have repeatedly tried to address and which seems to have run aground on "no board mandate" every time. just because you didn't see issues for the "past decade" didn't mean they weren't there | 12:45:31 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | so let's please not pretend that this situation started in the last few months or year or whatever | 12:46:02 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | the lack of clarity on where the responsibilities and authority lie, has been a problem for a much longer time | 12:46:58 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | * the lack of clarity on where the responsibilities and authority lie, has been a problem for a much longer time, they have merely become more pressing around the topic of sponsorship | 12:47:34 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | I am not even opposed to a board which keeps its distance from day-to-day community management, but then that does need to actually be clearly specified, with the necessary mandate provided given to the teams responsible for carrying out those operations, because the foundation does legally have control over matters - and that simply never happened | 12:49:07 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | you cannot both say "the community should run itself" and then still on paper be the owner while nobody actually knows who is supposed to have authority over what | 12:50:12 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | * you cannot both say "the community should run itself" and then still on paper be the owner while nobody actually knows who is supposed to have authority over what. that is setting up the community governance for failure | 12:50:45 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | (not to mention how a certain board member barging in and overruling already-made decisions, like has already been brought up frequently as a complaint, communicates exactly the inverse intention) | 12:51:55 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | in short, the fundamental problem here is neither the community governance, nor the anarchic nature of it, nor the lack of "top-down" governance, nor a lack of structure; it's that the structures that the community built to do the governing, never got the proper recognition and authority from "up top" that they needed to actually do their job | 12:54:54 |
 @emilytrau:matrix.org joined the room. | 12:58:29 | |
 Arian | I think we're saying the same thing? It seems the community has a different interpretation and expectation over what authority the foundation holds than it has in practise. If we want it go do active governance it needs to be run way more ... Professionally than it currently has | 13:03:56 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | I do not think we are; I am not saying we need active governance from the foundation | 13:04:31 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | I am saying that the lack of clarity about the foundation's position, and particularly that of eelco, has been the significant factor in our governance issues | 13:04:58 |