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27 Apr 2024
@ktemkin:katesiria.org[K]ate TemkinI'd really like to see good intentions in all off this, but it's getting harder and harder.07:35:07
@drupol:matrix.orgPol
In reply to @niksnut:matrix.org

I just want to re-iterate what my post says:

The assertion that Determinate Systems “owns” Nix or seeks to exert outsized influence over the project, the community, or the foundation is patently false: I am the only member of the Nix team who works for Determinate Systems.

So no, I or Determinate Systems do not in any way claim to own Nix, the community, the infrastructure or the foundation.

* I usually do not take part in these discussions and I'm sad to see what's happening these days. I was advocating for the adoption Nix at European Commission until this week, and I will slowly find a way to contradict myself in the upcoming days. I really didn't want to reach that point, but to be honest, your blog post was actually the trigger while I'm pretty sure it has been written full of good intentions and waves. Using the DetSys blog to respond to a "community" concern is strange, the title of your article explicitly name the "community", and in the last sentences, you invite people to join DetSys discord. Unless you consider the DetSys Discord for being the community, I guess it's impossible to make things even more confusing and willingly spread that idea. I sincerely hope something will make me change my mind, but I have serious doubts... good luck Eelco.
07:35:24
@nat-418:nat-418.xyznat-418
In reply to @niksnut:matrix.org
What influence do you see us seeking? For instance, we're not NixOS release managers, we're not on the RFC SC, the mod team, etc.
I see Determinate Systems as a VC-funded, for-profit fork of Nix (in the broader sense). It seems to me that by having an alternate installer, alternate documentation, an alternate community, &c. that promotes an alternate experimental technology (flakes), DetSys seeks to establish itself as a commercial alternative Nix ecosystem. My understanding was that your recent blog post invited Nix community members to join the DetSys community. If I am wrong, then I am more than willing to be corrected. I sincerely appreciate your work and willingness to answer questions.
07:37:58
@nat-418:nat-418.xyznat-418
In reply to @niksnut:matrix.org
What influence do you see us seeking? For instance, we're not NixOS release managers, we're not on the RFC SC, the mod team, etc.
* I see Determinate Systems as leading a VC-funded, for-profit fork of Nix (in the broader sense). It seems to me that by having an alternate installer, alternate documentation, an alternate community, &c. that promotes an alternate experimental technology (flakes), DetSys seeks to establish itself as a commercial alternative Nix ecosystem. My understanding was that your recent blog post invited Nix community members to join the DetSys community. If I am wrong, then I am more than willing to be corrected. I sincerely appreciate your work and willingness to answer questions.
07:38:16
@nat-418:nat-418.xyznat-418
In reply to @niksnut:matrix.org
What influence do you see us seeking? For instance, we're not NixOS release managers, we're not on the RFC SC, the mod team, etc.
my prior post was intended to respond to this message
07:39:29
@drupol:matrix.orgPol * I usually refrain from engaging in community discussions, but the recent events and your message have compelled me to voice my thoughts. I have been a proponent of adopting Nix at the European Commission, advocating for its benefits and potential. However, the unfolding situation and, specifically, the content and medium of your recent post is a trigger. While I recognize and appreciate the good waves and intentions behind your message, using the Determinate Systems blog to address concerns that are fundamentally about the Nix community blurs the lines between corporate and community interests. By directing the conversation to the Determinate Systems' platforms — as seen in the mention of joining the DetSys Discord — it could be perceived as conflating the Nix community with Determinate Systems, which adds to the confusion. I hope we can find a way to address these community concerns more clearly and separately from corporate affiliations. A more distinct delineation might help reassure the community and myself about the independence and openness of Nix. I am open to dialogue and hope to see steps taken that might help change my perspective on the ongoing issues... good luck Eelco. 07:41:49
@drupol:matrix.orgPol * I usually refrain from engaging in community discussions, but the recent events and your message have compelled me to voice my thoughts. I have been a proponent of adopting Nix at the European Commission, advocating for its benefits and potential. However, the unfolding situation and, specifically, the content and medium of your recent post is a trigger. While I recognize and appreciate the good waves and intentions behind your message, using the Determinate Systems blog to address a "community" (as mentioned in the post title) concerns that are fundamentally about the Nix community blurs the lines between corporate and community interests. By directing the conversation to the Determinate Systems' platforms — as seen in the mention in the last sentences, of joining the DetSys Discord — it could be perceived as conflating the Nix community with Determinate Systems, which adds confusion to the confusion. I hope we can find a way to address these community concerns more clearly and separately from corporate affiliations. A more distinct delineation might help reassure the community and myself about the independence and openness of Nix. I am open to dialogue and hope to see steps taken that might help change my perspective on the ongoing issues... good luck Eelco. 07:46:47
@shalokshalom:kde.org@shalokshalom:kde.org
In reply to @piegames:matrix.org
https://github.com/NixOS/foundation/pull/140
This is the sponsorship policy we could have gotten without you blocking it

I think this throws up a question, that might or might not be clear at this point.

Are we a democracy? Since I agree, when we are, that the majority of the community seems to be for this enhanced policy, that bans MIC from sponsoring.

I am potentially not well informed, - quite frankly, the situation seems to be not clear by design - but is there even a generally agreed upon structure, on how we decide things?

If we have no BDFL, what do we have?
I did my fair share of research on that, and this seems to be a mysterium. 🫤

Appreciate all your investments. 👍🏻

07:47:37
@piegames:matrix.org@piegames:matrix.orgNo, we are not a democracy07:50:31
@piegames:matrix.org@piegames:matrix.orgMost of the time, we're an anarchy07:51:02
@piegames:matrix.org@piegames:matrix.org(And I don't mean that in a derogatory way of the word)07:51:30
@drupol:matrix.orgPol *

I usually refrain from engaging in community discussions, but the recent events and your message have compelled me to voice my thoughts. I have been a proponent of adopting Nix at the European Commission, advocating for its benefits and potential. However, the unfolding situation and, specifically, the content and medium of your recent post is a trigger and I will seriously think twice before advocating Nix in the future.

While I recognize and appreciate the good waves and intentions behind your message, using the Determinate Systems blog to address a "community" (as mentioned in the post title) concerns that are fundamentally about the Nix community blurs the lines between corporate and community interests. By directing the conversation to the Determinate Systems' platforms — as seen in the mention in the last sentences, of joining the DetSys Discord — it could be perceived as conflating the Nix community with Determinate Systems, which adds confusion to the confusion. The situation with the "Nix installers" where every single of my colleagues ask me why there are multiple installers existing... all of this is very tiring and cumbersome, and to some extent, dangerous for the project adoption.

I sincerely hope we can find a way to address these community concerns more clearly and separately from corporate affiliations. A more distinct delineation might help reassure the community and myself about the independence and openness of Nix. I am open to dialogue and hope to see steps taken that might help change my perspective on the ongoing issues... good luck Eelco.

07:54:24
@arianvp:matrix.orgArianI really don't understand why people are Angry about this being posted on the DS blog. People make direct allegations specifically about Determinate systems. Then get offended that Determinate Systems answers? 07:57:03
@arianvp:matrix.orgArianLike. You're literally throwing allegations of them meddling and interfering with things and then get mad for them responding to the allegations . I'm so confused 07:57:58
@drupol:matrix.orgPolI don't even know what to answer to you.... good luck to you too....07:58:43
@arianvp:matrix.orgArianLike. I am not surprised? Let's put it like that. 07:59:25
@arianvp:matrix.orgArianThat you don't agree with the content. Find it lacking. Fine. But I don't understand why people are falling over the medium. Given DS was explicitly called out as problematic 08:00:27
@ktemkin:katesiria.org[K]ate TemkinSomeone like Eelco has to wear two hats -- he has to both act as a foundation board member and as a founder of DetSys. He's repsonsible for keeping those two things separate.08:01:33
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunat
In reply to @piegames:matrix.org
Most of the time, we're an anarchy
Yes, that's how it is, de facto. But a community like nixos.org can't work the same like a country, it's just different.
08:01:52
@ktemkin:katesiria.org[K]ate Temkin
In reply to @ktemkin:katesiria.org
Someone like Eelco has to wear two hats -- he has to both act as a foundation board member and as a founder of DetSys. He's repsonsible for keeping those two things separate.
When he's questioned as a community leader, and makes a post about the state of the community, doing it from his DetSys account is a bad look. If he wanted to respond to the state of things as DetSys, he shouldn't have tried to make it about the Nix Community.
08:02:32
@ktemkin:katesiria.org[K]ate TemkinThe upset comes from the tone-deafness in the lack of separation.08:02:45
@ktemkin:katesiria.org[K]ate TemkinFurther, "if you want to talk about allegations of misconduct against me, come and do it in this space I control" isn't a great look, either.08:04:13
@withoutwithin:matrix.org@withoutwithin:matrix.orgBefore that blog post, I was willing to work together to help create a better future for this project. After that blog post I can't bother to fucking care.08:11:33
@nat-418:nat-418.xyznat-418
In reply to @withoutwithin:matrix.org
Before that blog post, I was willing to work together to help create a better future for this project. After that blog post I can't bother to fucking care.
Your documentation work has helped me over the years. Thank you. Sad to see another great contributor alienated.
08:13:19
@withoutwithin:matrix.org@withoutwithin:matrix.orgThank you, I try ^^08:14:07
@withoutwithin:matrix.org@withoutwithin:matrix.orghonestly once eelco's post dropped, the only reason i didn't delete my back catalogue of Nix/NixOS posts is that I am currently on a work trip and don't have access to a stable internet connection08:19:58
@shalokshalom:kde.org@shalokshalom:kde.org
In reply to @piegames:matrix.org
Most of the time, we're an anarchy
Yesterday I got told, we are (sadly) not an Anarchy 😅
08:28:48
@shalokshalom:kde.org@shalokshalom:kde.org
In reply to @ktemkin:katesiria.org
Further, "if you want to talk about allegations of misconduct against me, come and do it in this space I control" isn't a great look, either.
Agree. And 1:1 the same happened yesterday with the moderation team.
08:29:35
@s9616726:tu-dresden.deMaximilian Marx
In reply to @shalokshalom:kde.org
Agree. And 1:1 the same happened yesterday with the moderation team.
It's really not “1:1” if people tell you “ we are not the moderation team, go talk to the moderation team if you want to discuss that topic”
08:34:35
@patka_123:matrix.org@patka_123:matrix.org joined the room.08:37:15

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