NixOS Foundation | 450 Members | |
| Public room for chatting with the NixOS Foundation Board | 112 Servers |
| Sender | Message | Time |
|---|---|---|
| 27 Apr 2024 | ||
| I'd really like to see good intentions in all off this, but it's getting harder and harder. | 07:35:07 | |
In reply to @niksnut:matrix.org* I usually do not take part in these discussions and I'm sad to see what's happening these days. I was advocating for the adoption Nix at European Commission until this week, and I will slowly find a way to contradict myself in the upcoming days. I really didn't want to reach that point, but to be honest, your blog post was actually the trigger while I'm pretty sure it has been written full of good intentions and waves. Using the DetSys blog to respond to a "community" concern is strange, the title of your article explicitly name the "community", and in the last sentences, you invite people to join DetSys discord. Unless you consider the DetSys Discord for being the community, I guess it's impossible to make things even more confusing and willingly spread that idea. I sincerely hope something will make me change my mind, but I have serious doubts... good luck Eelco. | 07:35:24 | |
In reply to @niksnut:matrix.orgI see Determinate Systems as a VC-funded, for-profit fork of Nix (in the broader sense). It seems to me that by having an alternate installer, alternate documentation, an alternate community, &c. that promotes an alternate experimental technology (flakes), DetSys seeks to establish itself as a commercial alternative Nix ecosystem. My understanding was that your recent blog post invited Nix community members to join the DetSys community. If I am wrong, then I am more than willing to be corrected. I sincerely appreciate your work and willingness to answer questions. | 07:37:58 | |
In reply to @niksnut:matrix.org* I see Determinate Systems as leading a VC-funded, for-profit fork of Nix (in the broader sense). It seems to me that by having an alternate installer, alternate documentation, an alternate community, &c. that promotes an alternate experimental technology (flakes), DetSys seeks to establish itself as a commercial alternative Nix ecosystem. My understanding was that your recent blog post invited Nix community members to join the DetSys community. If I am wrong, then I am more than willing to be corrected. I sincerely appreciate your work and willingness to answer questions. | 07:38:16 | |
In reply to @niksnut:matrix.orgmy prior post was intended to respond to this message | 07:39:29 | |
| * I usually refrain from engaging in community discussions, but the recent events and your message have compelled me to voice my thoughts. I have been a proponent of adopting Nix at the European Commission, advocating for its benefits and potential. However, the unfolding situation and, specifically, the content and medium of your recent post is a trigger. While I recognize and appreciate the good waves and intentions behind your message, using the Determinate Systems blog to address concerns that are fundamentally about the Nix community blurs the lines between corporate and community interests. By directing the conversation to the Determinate Systems' platforms — as seen in the mention of joining the DetSys Discord — it could be perceived as conflating the Nix community with Determinate Systems, which adds to the confusion. I hope we can find a way to address these community concerns more clearly and separately from corporate affiliations. A more distinct delineation might help reassure the community and myself about the independence and openness of Nix. I am open to dialogue and hope to see steps taken that might help change my perspective on the ongoing issues... good luck Eelco. | 07:41:49 | |
| * I usually refrain from engaging in community discussions, but the recent events and your message have compelled me to voice my thoughts. I have been a proponent of adopting Nix at the European Commission, advocating for its benefits and potential. However, the unfolding situation and, specifically, the content and medium of your recent post is a trigger. While I recognize and appreciate the good waves and intentions behind your message, using the Determinate Systems blog to address a "community" (as mentioned in the post title) concerns that are fundamentally about the Nix community blurs the lines between corporate and community interests. By directing the conversation to the Determinate Systems' platforms — as seen in the mention in the last sentences, of joining the DetSys Discord — it could be perceived as conflating the Nix community with Determinate Systems, which adds confusion to the confusion. I hope we can find a way to address these community concerns more clearly and separately from corporate affiliations. A more distinct delineation might help reassure the community and myself about the independence and openness of Nix. I am open to dialogue and hope to see steps taken that might help change my perspective on the ongoing issues... good luck Eelco. | 07:46:47 | |
In reply to @piegames:matrix.org I think this throws up a question, that might or might not be clear at this point. Are we a democracy? Since I agree, when we are, that the majority of the community seems to be for this enhanced policy, that bans MIC from sponsoring. I am potentially not well informed, - quite frankly, the situation seems to be not clear by design - but is there even a generally agreed upon structure, on how we decide things? If we have no BDFL, what do we have? Appreciate all your investments. 👍🏻 | 07:47:37 | |
| No, we are not a democracy | 07:50:31 | |
| Most of the time, we're an anarchy | 07:51:02 | |
| (And I don't mean that in a derogatory way of the word) | 07:51:30 | |
| * I usually refrain from engaging in community discussions, but the recent events and your message have compelled me to voice my thoughts. I have been a proponent of adopting Nix at the European Commission, advocating for its benefits and potential. However, the unfolding situation and, specifically, the content and medium of your recent post is a trigger and I will seriously think twice before advocating Nix in the future. While I recognize and appreciate the good waves and intentions behind your message, using the Determinate Systems blog to address a "community" (as mentioned in the post title) concerns that are fundamentally about the Nix community blurs the lines between corporate and community interests. By directing the conversation to the Determinate Systems' platforms — as seen in the mention in the last sentences, of joining the DetSys Discord — it could be perceived as conflating the Nix community with Determinate Systems, which adds confusion to the confusion. The situation with the "Nix installers" where every single of my colleagues ask me why there are multiple installers existing... all of this is very tiring and cumbersome, and to some extent, dangerous for the project adoption. I sincerely hope we can find a way to address these community concerns more clearly and separately from corporate affiliations. A more distinct delineation might help reassure the community and myself about the independence and openness of Nix. I am open to dialogue and hope to see steps taken that might help change my perspective on the ongoing issues... good luck Eelco. | 07:54:24 | |
| I really don't understand why people are Angry about this being posted on the DS blog. People make direct allegations specifically about Determinate systems. Then get offended that Determinate Systems answers? | 07:57:03 | |
| Like. You're literally throwing allegations of them meddling and interfering with things and then get mad for them responding to the allegations . I'm so confused | 07:57:58 | |
| I don't even know what to answer to you.... good luck to you too.... | 07:58:43 | |
| Like. I am not surprised? Let's put it like that. | 07:59:25 | |
| That you don't agree with the content. Find it lacking. Fine. But I don't understand why people are falling over the medium. Given DS was explicitly called out as problematic | 08:00:27 | |
| Someone like Eelco has to wear two hats -- he has to both act as a foundation board member and as a founder of DetSys. He's repsonsible for keeping those two things separate. | 08:01:33 | |
In reply to @piegames:matrix.orgYes, that's how it is, de facto. But a community like nixos.org can't work the same like a country, it's just different. | 08:01:52 | |
In reply to @ktemkin:katesiria.orgWhen he's questioned as a community leader, and makes a post about the state of the community, doing it from his DetSys account is a bad look. If he wanted to respond to the state of things as DetSys, he shouldn't have tried to make it about the Nix Community. | 08:02:32 | |
| The upset comes from the tone-deafness in the lack of separation. | 08:02:45 | |
| Further, "if you want to talk about allegations of misconduct against me, come and do it in this space I control" isn't a great look, either. | 08:04:13 | |
| Before that blog post, I was willing to work together to help create a better future for this project. After that blog post I can't bother to fucking care. | 08:11:33 | |
In reply to @withoutwithin:matrix.orgYour documentation work has helped me over the years. Thank you. Sad to see another great contributor alienated. | 08:13:19 | |
| Thank you, I try ^^ | 08:14:07 | |
| honestly once eelco's post dropped, the only reason i didn't delete my back catalogue of Nix/NixOS posts is that I am currently on a work trip and don't have access to a stable internet connection | 08:19:58 | |
In reply to @piegames:matrix.orgYesterday I got told, we are (sadly) not an Anarchy 😅 | 08:28:48 | |
In reply to @ktemkin:katesiria.orgAgree. And 1:1 the same happened yesterday with the moderation team. | 08:29:35 | |
In reply to @shalokshalom:kde.orgIt's really not “1:1” if people tell you “ we are not the moderation team, go talk to the moderation team if you want to discuss that topic” | 08:34:35 | |
| 08:37:15 | ||