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Sender	Message	Time
27 Apr 2024
nat-418	In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town nat-418: as I mentioned above, the project is not structureless to begin with, we already have governance structures, that is not the problem Who owns the trademarks?	14:01:33
@joepie91:pixie.town	the foundation does, to my knowledge	14:01:44
nat-418	Who has the power to tell a confernce "no"?	14:01:47
nat-418	* Who has the power to tell a conference "no"?	14:01:54
@joepie91:pixie.town	the vast majority of project governance is not related to trademarks in any way	14:02:10
nat-418	In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town nat-418: as I mentioned above, the project is not structureless to begin with, we already have governance structures, that is not the problem The board is not responsible for technical leadership, decisions, or direction. this is structurelessness	14:06:13
@joepie91:pixie.town	no...	14:06:23
@joepie91:pixie.town	"the board" is not the governance structure that we have	14:06:37
nat-418	what is?	14:06:44
@joepie91:pixie.town	there exists more in the project than the board, like teams, working groups	14:06:53
nat-418	sounds vauge	14:07:28
nat-418	* sounds vague	14:07:31
@joepie91:pixie.town	none of which are where the problem lies	14:07:33
@joepie91:pixie.town	yes, governance is complicated, people are complicated	14:07:42
@joepie91:pixie.town	please do not mistake complexity of governance for absence of it	14:08:16
nat-418	sounds like there is no unified leadership. that seems to be related to the ongoing crisis of contributors leaving.	14:08:42
@joepie91:pixie.town	it is not the reason contributors are leaving	14:08:53
nat-418	I am installing Guix right now because even though I don't agree with a lot of the GNU ideology at least it's an ethos, and that community seems united around it.	14:09:27
nat-418	* I am installing Guix right now because even though I don't agree with a lot of the GNU ideology at least it's an ethos, and that community seems united around it with clear leadership.	14:09:41
danielle	In reply to @zimbatm:numtide.com I think people have very different views of the board. Personally I don't see them as our community leaders at all and I absolutely don't want them to be. That's very true. Our role is to be the interface between the community and legal/commercial. Not to lead the community. The intention was for the community to self-manage, with minimal intervention from the board to unblock where needed. There is a big mismatch of expectations there, that started happening when we had to weigh on the sponsorship policy. It started for me around the attempts at kickstarting a moderation team happened - where any attempts at mentioning a CoC were derailed into "but this is a board decision" - and where we (the community) and "you" (the board) failed to resolve the things that somewhat predictably exploded now. (Which was why I was originally pushing for a community team rather than a fixed "moderation team" tbf).	14:29:10
danielle	Folks deciding something is the responsibility of the foundation has kinda long been the "kick the tirefire down the road" of the nix project	14:30:09
ronef	Morning from the pacific time zone. catching up now👋	14:45:34
	@hansemschnokeloch:matrix.org joined the room.	15:18:09
tomberek	Yes, I drafted an interim policy. Upon no reactions for several months. I announced in NixCon and sponsorship discussion forums that I would use that procedure for NixConNA. https://github.com/NixOS/foundation/issues/110#issue-2060360236	15:37:34
ronef	Just finished reading everything here, Matrix isn't friendly to scrolling. I definitely hear the different issues raised and apologies for not being able to respond more timely from my end. Jotting down a few of the issues mentioned that I've caught reading through (feel free to add/correct me) Different wants/expectations around the boards role in the project - Choose and make it very explicit, then set up the structure around it to empower the community. Assuring teams/leads that no one is going to pop out of nowhere and hinder/block/slow/veto Soft power with BDFL, while Eelco doesn't want/see himself as BDFL Moderation pains Conflicts of Interest with DetSys Scope and Time -> Funding for the project Xe's blog	15:52:25
problems	Eelco has repeatedly stated that he does not want to be seen as a BDFL, that he does not hold any real power, that he would be willing to step down from his roles. He has also been asked (by a large portion of the community) to step down. Why has Eelco not stepped down?	15:54:27
danielle	In reply to @ronef:matrix.org Just finished reading everything here, Matrix isn't friendly to scrolling. I definitely hear the different issues raised and apologies for not being able to respond more timely from my end. Jotting down a few of the issues mentioned that I've caught reading through (feel free to add/correct me) Different wants/expectations around the boards role in the project - Choose and make it very explicit, then set up the structure around it to empower the community. Assuring teams/leads that no one is going to pop out of nowhere and hinder/block/slow/veto Soft power with BDFL, while Eelco doesn't want/see himself as BDFL Moderation pains Conflicts of Interest with DetSys Scope and Time -> Funding for the project Xe's blog that is a pretty good understanding - I'd add explicit points that if Eelco doesn't want to be a BDFL, he probably also needs to step down as the Nix Team Lead + probably from the board (esp after the blog post)	15:58:15

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