| 8 Sep 2023 |
 proofconstruction | * The handling of this situation underscores the need for establishing at least the following:
- a community code of conduct, to provide guidance and establish boundaries for safe and productive coordination,
- tighter sponsorship guidelines for (quasi?) official events, to help clarify accountability in these cases,
- clarification of what constitutes an official event (in my opinion, only explicitly-Foundation-organized events should carry the "official" status, with the relevant communications coming from Foundation-labeled accounts or individuals explicitly acting as representatives of the Foundation),
- better practices around public-facing messaging in general (I understand everyone is very busy with last-minute preparations, but we still have not seen a statement about how and why the decision was made to accept this sponsorship, nor its reversal),
- community moderators who carry responsibility for ensuring the code of conduct is adhered to, and who are publicly accountable for any actions taken (some of this responsibility is already held by the Moderation Team, but my intention here is to further distribute that burden to community members whose only job is this, and who do not also hold high-profile maintainer positions on other teams; these folks tend to be too busy to actively and consistently participate in faster-paced contexts like Discourse threads or in the many unofficial channels)
| 02:05:01 |
 vcunat | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
(specifically, it deeply concerns me how many people there are in the community who consider this acceptable behaviour or beliefs to hold, and makes me feel rather unsafe as a result) The community is large, like thousands of people. It's inevitable to contain all kinds of people 🤷 I don't think this is basis to feel unsafe; I'm quite sure nixos.org community is a better sample than people one meets in person. Controversial topics will just highlight more extreme opinions. | 05:48:13 |
 Domen Kožar | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
(specifically, it deeply concerns me how many people there are in the community who consider this acceptable behaviour or beliefs to hold, and makes me feel rather unsafe as a result) In a diverse community as Nix, there will be people from all over the world, holding pretty much any belief there is on the spectrum. That's why we have moderation team to resolve any personal attacks and making sure these don't happen regardless of your belief. If you feel unsafe due to other beliefs,I understand and I know it can be difficult, there's not much we can do I'm afraid. | 07:19:57 |
| Domen Kožar | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
(specifically, it deeply concerns me how many people there are in the community who consider this acceptable behaviour or beliefs to hold, and makes me feel rather unsafe as a result) * In a diverse community as Nix, there will be people from all over the world, holding pretty much any belief there is on the spectrum. That's why we have moderation team to resolve any personal attacks and making sure these don't happen regardless of any belief. If you feel unsafe due to other beliefs,I understand and I know it can be difficult, there's not much we can do I'm afraid. | 07:20:20 |
| Domen Kožar | * In a diverse community as Nix, there will be people from all over the world, holding pretty much any belief there is on the spectrum. That's why we have moderation team to resolve any personal attacks and making sure these don't happen regardless of any belief. If you feel unsafe due to other beliefs, I understand and I know it can be difficult, there's not much we can do I'm afraid. | 07:24:08 |
| Domen Kožar | There used to be guidelines around communities to avoid politics, but as those are being frowned upon these days, beliefs come out and consequently, intense negative feelings come out.
The world is a messy place and if one can't tolerate that, I can only suggest to build the personal boundaries not to engage in these discussions. | 07:28:04 |
 @joepie91:pixie.town | if the stance to "I feel unsafe in this community because of murder apologists roaming free" is "well there's nothing we can do about it", well... that seems like a good reason to reconsider my involvement in this community, because apparently there is no intention to protect people | 10:01:01 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | there absolutely are things you can do about it, whether you actually choose to do so is a different matter | 10:01:20 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | but don't try to trivialize this by pretending that there are no options, or trying to downplay my concerns | 10:01:43 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | because the reality is that if this community cannot meet the bar of "identifying and speaking out against fascists", then when (not if, when) I am in the firing line, I know whose back people will have and it will not be mine | 10:02:39 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | and I have no desire to be a part of such a community | 10:02:44 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | * because the reality is that if this community cannot meet the low low bar of "identifying and speaking out against fascists", then when (not if, when) I am in the firing line, I know whose back people will have and it will not be mine | 10:02:51 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | so please spare me the "there is nothing we can do about this", and actually take responsibility for what you will or will not do to make this a safe community | 10:03:34 |
 Arian | Calling people supporting military murder apologists and facsists is not okay. Excuse me | 10:03:36 |
| vcunat | joepie91 🏳️🌈 The topic was moderated. I think further complains about that should go to the team instead of the foundation channel. https://nixos.org/community/teams/moderation.html | 10:04:00 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | I was specifically asked to talk about it here by raitobezarius | 10:04:12 |
| vcunat | (perhaps the moderation came a bit late) | 10:04:16 |
| Arian | Sorry I am reacting emotionally. I'll Refrain from discussing here further. And leave moderation team / foundation npeople go react here instead | 10:04:29 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | and my remaining patience for Going Through Proper Channels for this sort of thing is at an all-time low, given the past incidents around the Gender Minorities room, the RFC98 process, and so on, all of which have never been actually reckoned with | 10:04:44 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | I am very much at the point of "either this gets solved or I will stop contributing" | 10:05:00 |
| vcunat | Well, I really don't envy members of the foundation and moderation teams. | 10:05:53 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | like, this isn't a one-off incident, it's the Nth incident in a series of incidents that always, always end up centering around tech dudes concern-trolling and otherwise sabotaging attempts to fix community safety problems while pretending to "just have a reasonable debate" or "just raise some concerns" - this is a systemic problem in the NixOS community that keeps coming back and that needs addressing, and it has already burned out too many marginalized folks who have tried to address this themselves | 10:06:53 |
| vcunat | The community has grown very fast in the past years and always was very under-organized. It's not just this aspect but whole governance needs to be figured out better as the community grows. | 10:08:42 |
| vcunat | And honestly, about this incident in particular, the only attacked minority in there are those weapon-makers. (fairly or not) | 10:10:23 |
| vcunat | * And honestly, about this incident in particular, I believe the main attacked minority in there are those weapon-makers. (fairly or not) | 10:10:54 |
| Arian | I'm not even sure what the actual call to action is. Are you asking for the discussion to be more strictly moderated? For the discussion to be removed altogether (that sounds counter productive) | 10:11:11 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | In reply to @vcunat:matrix.org
The community has grown very fast in the past years and always was very under-organized. It's not just this aspect but whole governance needs to be figured out better as the community grows. yeah so that is the thing, that's what I've been working on for the past few years, and it is continuously getting frustrated by aforementioned "apolitical" tech dudes | 10:12:09 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | like, this isn't some "we should do X" | 10:12:19 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | this is "I have been trying to do X and have not gotten the room to do so", and the same applies for various other people | 10:12:33 |
| vcunat | Yeah, large part of community don't won't to deal with anything "political". | 10:12:41 |
