| 8 Sep 2023 |
 Arian | * Okay but what part of the discussion is making you feel unsafe? That there are people who are pro-military? I'm afraid this is an extremely high bar to reach. Especially in the current situation of having Europe being attacked by a literal fascist terrorist state I think support for military is quite high in society.
I do think that making our community a safe space from military conflict is a low bar that we should be able to decide on and can make a policy pushing forward. E.g. not associate with military af all
But if discussing the topic on its own is already problematic then I don't know how we can come to a decision on that. | 10:23:57 |
 vcunat | Moderators could've locked the discussion a bit earlier 🤷 | 10:24:15 |
 @joepie91:pixie.town | vcunat: funnily enough that only seems to happen when the 'someone' is a privileged tech dude | 10:24:28 |
| vcunat | But what else? | 10:24:20 |
| vcunat | No, I disagree there. | 10:24:41 |
| vcunat | That's basic human psychology. | 10:24:47 |
| vcunat | Some people have tendency to defend those who get attacked, often even if the attack is justified. | 10:25:19 |
| vcunat | In a huge community, you have all kinds of opinions, unavoidably. | 10:25:59 |
| vcunat | (but yes, it is good to moderate to some extent) | 10:26:24 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | you can call it "basic human psychology" all you want, but the reality is that as soon as there's any discussion about consequences for people being shitty about defending oppressive systems, there's immediately a whole lot of "oh no we can't possibly do that, it's just an opinion, this should be a welcoming place, there should be no politics here, banning them would be overreach for just having a different opinion" whereas when a marginalized person indicates that they're burning out and leaving the community because they don't get safety/support, the first response is to start questioning whether they aren't imagining the problems | 10:26:47 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | which, incidentally, is literally what just happened here above | 10:26:58 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | so apparently some people leaving is considered more objectionable than others, and the exact groups for both of those raise some questions | 10:27:43 |
| Arian | I support a blanket ban on military-related topics in the community fwiw. I think it's a no brainer | 10:27:52 |
| vcunat | I think it will be best if I limit my posts on this topic here as well. | 10:28:11 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
like, to put it more bluntly: the comments in that forum thread are damning evidence of just how comfortable a number of community members feel in actively defending a murder machines company that, among other things, kills immigrants at the border and to expand this a bit more:
how, exactly, do you expect me to feel safe in a community with people who, when (again, not if, when) I become the target of this sort of shit, would instantly jump to the defense of the murderers?
| 10:29:22 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | well, a facepalm emoji certainly speaks volumes there. | 10:31:57 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | In reply to @arianvp:matrix.org
Okay but what part of the discussion is making you feel unsafe? That there are people who are pro-military? I'm afraid this is an extremely high bar to reach. Especially in the current situation of having Europe being attacked by a literal fascist terrorist state I think support for military is quite high in society.
I do think that making our community a safe space from military conflict is a low bar that we should be able to decide on and can make a policy pushing forward. E.g. not associate with military af all
But if discussing the topic on its own is already problematic then I don't know how we can come to a decision on that. also, I forgot to respond to one specific thing in here, sorry: there's a very important distinction between "accepting the existence/presence of a military in the circumstances" and "actively defending the concept itself and the worst excesses of it". I can understand in a crisis situation that someone might reluctantly accept its necessity (I might disagree, but I can understand it), in the sense that they would rather it didn't exist but it has to... but many of the comments here are of a very different nature, basically asserting that there isn't anything wrong with this stuff to begin with, as if it's politically neutral and without consequences, and that is the part that I have a problem with, and the part that makes people a safety risk | 10:50:26 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | it's possible to simultaneously dislike and reluctantly accept it, but when someone is practically cheering on the murder machines, that is of an entirely different order | 10:51:04 |
| Arian | Yeh I think I agree. I just think people might feel personally and emotionally attacked when they cant distinguish between this nuance | 10:51:36 |
| Arian | Which is why I think the discourse is getting more heated? | 10:51:53 |
| Arian | I also think it's hard to judge people's motivations from just a message on discourse. I don't know if anybody replying there is a pro military absolutionist. Most likely not | 10:52:45 |
| Arian | That's why i think it's more important we establish community guidelines around this topic. | 10:53:02 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | I'm gonna be blunt and say that that is their responsibility to learn to deal with. because the alternative is that it (once again) falls on the shoulders of already-overburdened marginalized folks to endlessly convince people of this when they really don't want to be convinced | 10:53:07 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | yes, it takes work to understand the consequences of what one says and does | 10:53:17 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | but right now there's just one specific demographic that isn't doing that work and it's the one I'm talking about here | 10:53:34 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | and it is frankly about time that they start pulling their weight on that matter | 10:53:57 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | In reply to @arianvp:matrix.org
I also think it's hard to judge people's motivations from just a message on discourse. I don't know if anybody replying there is a pro military absolutionist. Most likely not the thing is that it doesn't really matter from a practical perspective. if someone feels comfortable today jumping to the defense of a murder machines company without any consideration of nuance or consequences, they will feel comfortable to do the same when I or one of my friends are in the firing line | 10:55:07 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | whether they are dangerous through intent or through ignorance does not change the outcome | 10:55:26 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | I can fundamentally never trust them | 10:56:02 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | * I can fundamentally never trust them, as long as they behave that way | 10:56:07 |
