| 8 Sep 2023 |
 @joepie91:pixie.town | In reply to @arianvp:matrix.org
Okay but what part of the discussion is making you feel unsafe? That there are people who are pro-military? I'm afraid this is an extremely high bar to reach. Especially in the current situation of having Europe being attacked by a literal fascist terrorist state I think support for military is quite high in society.
I do think that making our community a safe space from military conflict is a low bar that we should be able to decide on and can make a policy pushing forward. E.g. not associate with military af all
But if discussing the topic on its own is already problematic then I don't know how we can come to a decision on that. also, I forgot to respond to one specific thing in here, sorry: there's a very important distinction between "accepting the existence/presence of a military in the circumstances" and "actively defending the concept itself and the worst excesses of it". I can understand in a crisis situation that someone might reluctantly accept its necessity (I might disagree, but I can understand it), in the sense that they would rather it didn't exist but it has to... but many of the comments here are of a very different nature, basically asserting that there isn't anything wrong with this stuff to begin with, as if it's politically neutral and without consequences, and that is the part that I have a problem with, and the part that makes people a safety risk | 10:50:26 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | it's possible to simultaneously dislike and reluctantly accept it, but when someone is practically cheering on the murder machines, that is of an entirely different order | 10:51:04 |
 Arian | Yeh I think I agree. I just think people might feel personally and emotionally attacked when they cant distinguish between this nuance | 10:51:36 |
| Arian | Which is why I think the discourse is getting more heated? | 10:51:53 |
| Arian | I also think it's hard to judge people's motivations from just a message on discourse. I don't know if anybody replying there is a pro military absolutionist. Most likely not | 10:52:45 |
| Arian | That's why i think it's more important we establish community guidelines around this topic. | 10:53:02 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | I'm gonna be blunt and say that that is their responsibility to learn to deal with. because the alternative is that it (once again) falls on the shoulders of already-overburdened marginalized folks to endlessly convince people of this when they really don't want to be convinced | 10:53:07 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | yes, it takes work to understand the consequences of what one says and does | 10:53:17 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | but right now there's just one specific demographic that isn't doing that work and it's the one I'm talking about here | 10:53:34 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | and it is frankly about time that they start pulling their weight on that matter | 10:53:57 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | In reply to @arianvp:matrix.org
I also think it's hard to judge people's motivations from just a message on discourse. I don't know if anybody replying there is a pro military absolutionist. Most likely not the thing is that it doesn't really matter from a practical perspective. if someone feels comfortable today jumping to the defense of a murder machines company without any consideration of nuance or consequences, they will feel comfortable to do the same when I or one of my friends are in the firing line | 10:55:07 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | whether they are dangerous through intent or through ignorance does not change the outcome | 10:55:26 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | I can fundamentally never trust them | 10:56:02 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | * I can fundamentally never trust them, as long as they behave that way | 10:56:07 |
| Arian | Let's be honest here. We live in an extremely privilged country devoid of any recent conflict. Were not gonna be on the firing line. | 10:56:23 |
| Arian | Any time soon. Or ever | 10:56:27 |
| Arian | I think that's important to acknowledge | 10:56:37 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | "firing line" here doesn't just mean a literal war in the nation state sense | 10:56:43 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | (this is also why I brought up the previous incidents around RFC98 and the GM room) | 10:58:21 |
| Arian | Okay using literal speech about war followed by figure of speech with a war theme is kind of confusing. I still think it's important to acknowledge we're priveleged regarding war and not marginalized. Though we might be marginalized in other ways | 10:59:44 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
I'm gonna be blunt and say that that is their responsibility to learn to deal with. because the alternative is that it (once again) falls on the shoulders of already-overburdened marginalized folks to endlessly convince people of this when they really don't want to be convinced also, I actually want to be more explicit about this: it is not the job of marginalized people to manage the feelings of privileged folks who have never had to reckon with the consequences of their actions and beliefs. such assistance might be provided as a courtesy, but it is absolutely not something that can or should be expected, and the responsibility of managing one's feelings and emotions ultimately falls to the individual. | 11:00:58 |
| Arian | But in this particular scenario you _are_ speaking from a privileged position. (So are others and they should acknowledge that yes) | 11:02:41 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | (likewise, I will happily explain problems when given the space to do so, but there's something very wrong when I need to walk on eggshells not to set off someone's delicately manufactured ideal of a just world, while they can just basically say whatever they want without regard for how it impacts me or others) | 11:02:46 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | Arian: I am not. there is a reason I have been avoiding the specific topic of "is a military needed". | 11:03:34 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | because this is not about that, this is about the behaviour of a number of community members and how that affects me and my friends as marginalized people, not just in this incident but also in previous ones | 11:04:28 |
 vcunat | You may have been avoiding that, but the initial topic was called "NixCon sponsored by military" and some other posts were along those lines. And e.g. I was strongly reminded of big recent public protests saying no weapons to Ukraine, we want peace. | 11:50:56 |
| vcunat | So I get why these discussions could get heated easily. | 11:51:25 |
| vcunat | (And kind-of unnecessarily in the context of NixOS.) | 11:51:46 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | vcunat: my comment about avoiding the "is a military needed" topic was a response to "you are speaking from a privileged position" | 11:55:16 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | it is not related to any of the other points being discussed | 11:55:26 |
