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8 Sep 2023
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunatUsually someone opens another related topic and it's even worse.16:07:36
@joepie91:pixie.town@joepie91:pixie.townI think closing it would only help if a) there was a specified time period for which the topic as a whole were banned forum-wide, after which it will be considered when more moderator capacity is available, and b) that were actually enforced on new threads as well16:09:21
@joepie91:pixie.town@joepie91:pixie.townunder any other circumstances, yeah, I expect it to just get worse16:09:38
@joepie91:pixie.town@joepie91:pixie.town(like, "this will be closed for the next N days until nixcon is over and moderators can dig into what happened" or so)16:10:15
@adam:robins.wtfadamcstephens (buzz) I think the closing of the thread was the best choice. It’s clear there are fundamental disagreements about how the world does and should work, and continuing to take jabs at and build intolerance towards each other is not good for the community. While I know where I stand, it’s clear to me that the thread was never going to provide any sort of resolution.  I will say, for my part, I’m sorry if I participated in furthering the divide.        16:48:32
@raitobezarius:matrix.orgraitobezarius
In reply to @vcunat:matrix.org
Right now people are busy with NixCon, so I don't expect the moderation team to be reacting within an hour.
We do follow the situation as much as we do FWIW
16:51:00
@ttamttam:matrix.orgttamttam joined the room.17:54:45
@ttamttam:matrix.orgttamttam

+1 to joepie91 🏳️‍🌈's assessment. I don't want to speak too much outside my experience as a privileged tech dude, but I'm going to go ahead and try to provide some more perspective. If I get something wrong please feel free to correct me (you can DM me or call me out publicly) and I'll remove/amend what I've put here.

What many of us are missing is that concern trolling and debate (I.e. arguing to win) tactics are often used to further silence marginalized people. If you spend a large amount of your life with dogwhistles and bad faith arguments directed at you then they start having a certain overpowering loudness to them. The worst part is to most people on the outside these tactics look benign, even when they're used to shut down the voices of those who are marginalized.
People who "just ask hard questions" and "have concerns" often do so and bring up lofty ideas like (their) free speech, and freeze up the entire conversion. This pushes out the marginalized people who have to deal with the real consequences of the topic of the debate. The people being pushed out rightfully find their mental well being and sometimes literal safety not worth membership in an online group that won't take their grievances seriously.
Sometimes this is done intentionally, sometimes it isn't, the result is the same. When you are constantly the target of bad faith attempts to shut down your voice, even if someone unwittingly makes those same arguments, that's going to feel like an attack on you. Because you're used to it (more often then not) being a bad faith attempt at silencing you.

Let's also not pretend that everyone in the Nixos community is privileged or safe from conflict, even in the privileged US I have trans friends who are very rightly concerned about being in a literal firing line (state sanctioned or otherwise), and coworkers who fled to the United States from actual warzones.

And about the people making the arguments that they are going to be silenced by some leftist thought police: Well in some senses they are, depending how far down the rabbit hole they've gone. But I'd bet that 90% of people who raise this concern in good faith would never actually be censored, they just don't like the idea that maybe one day they might be called out and held accountable for what they say. And, like, not even in a bad way necessarily. Usually when I'm "held accountable for what I've said" it ends with me being much more enlightened about the issues others face; and the people I hurt feeling heard and respected by both me and the community we share. It's not like I'm driven out with pitchforks and torches with no chance for an apology or to clear up miscommunication. So all that is to say I consider "calling out the individual actions that drive marginalized people away" far more palatable than "protecting the voices of those doing the driving away".

19:52:10
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunatI'm repeatedly confused by these mentions of "marginalization" in context of that discourse thread, but I guess it's just me.20:08:18
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunat * I'm repeatedly confused by these mentions of "marginalization" in context of that discourse thread, but I guess it's just me 🤷20:08:26
@joepie91:pixie.town@joepie91:pixie.townif a specific thing is unclear, then the fastest path to an answer is to ask a clear question20:10:43
@joepie91:pixie.town@joepie91:pixie.townas in, if you don't elaborate on what exactly you're confused about, then there's also not going to be any opportunity for anyone to clarify it20:11:52
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunatI'm sorry. I won't try.20:14:54
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunatI'm afraid of making things worse.20:15:03
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunatLet me focus on technical things instead. I'm no good with resolving people conflicts.20:16:28
@joepie91:pixie.town@joepie91:pixie.town

two thoughts on that:

  1. I'm always happy to answer questions, as long as they are asked in good faith (asking to learn rather than asking to challenge, no presumptions, etc.) - I've had hours long productive conversations with people as a result of these
  2. if you'd rather not deal with the topic at all, then that's fine too of course, but then please actually refrain from commenting instead of making vague statements/assertions/etc. and exiting stage left when someone responds, because this is exhausting for others to deal with and disruptive to conversation
20:18:46
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunatYes. Perhaps I shouldn't have commented that I don't understand when I'm not willing to work to resolve it.20:19:57
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunatBut I can't really undo it now.20:20:17
@joepie91:pixie.town@joepie91:pixie.townright, of course. I'm saying this more as feedback to avoid reoccurrence in the future20:20:40
@joepie91:pixie.town@joepie91:pixie.townbut thanks, that is indeed what I meant20:20:48
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunat * But I can't really undo it now. It should suffice that others understand this, the moderation team in particular.20:22:19
@joepie91:pixie.town@joepie91:pixie.town(the same feedback also applies to other folks who have done the same thing over the past $time, as this has been a somewhat frequent occurrence in community-related discussions around Nix)20:22:54
@enzime:nixos.devEnzime set a profile picture.20:27:51
@ulli:hrnz.li@ulli:hrnz.li left the room.20:40:35
@ttamttam:matrix.orgttamttam To be perfectly clear my use of the term marginalized people was to refer the marginalized people who are often targeted by the type of rhetoric I described above. In the particular case of the discourse thread about military sponsorships, that would mean those on the receiving end of the military industrial complex: Immigrants, civilians caught in war zones, and their loved ones.
Part of my frustration about that topic was seeing a pattern of bad faith rhetoric being used to minimize and silence the legitimate concerns of others, particularly the concern that marginalized people (immigrants who have tried to cross the US southern border in this case) won't feel welcomed or safe for some reason (because their community is being sponsored by the company that makes the automated sentries that are designed to kill people who try to cross the border like they did). This is a pattern I notice in all sorts of online and public spaces, So I deliberately used a vague term to talk about the wider issue instead of this particular instance. I can see how that connection could be confusing.
I don't want to put words in other people's mouths, that's just what I meant when I used the word and how I've been interpreting it in this thread.
20:46:13
@artturin:matrix.orgArtturinIt appears that the company makes sentry(surveillance) towers for the US border which reduce the manpower needed to monitor the border20:49:16
@artturin:matrix.orgArtturin * It appears that the company makes sentry(surveillance) towers for the US border which reduce the manpower needed to monitor the border (from their site)20:49:22
@artturin:matrix.orgArtturin * It appears that the company makes sentry(surveillance) towers for the US border which reduce the manpower needed to monitor the border (from their site), not automatic turrets for the border.20:50:04
@artturin:matrix.orgArtturin * It appears that the company makes sentry(surveillance) towers for the US border which reduce the manpower needed to monitor the border (from their website), not automatic turrets for the border.20:51:11
@ttamttam:matrix.orgttamttam Well that's my particular misunderstanding. That doesn't really change the fact that it's a controversial company that can certainly strike up some negative emotions in people.
That's actually one reason I prefer to speak generally, so as to avoid "gotchas" that don't change the core of my argument, and I address them we suddenly end up three pages down in the forum thread debating what is and isn't acceptable practice for border security when the point I was trying to make was about a pattern of rhetoric that I believe is unhealthy for the community.
20:57:08

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