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8 Sep 2023
@joepie91:pixie.town@joepie91:pixie.town * vcunat: to clarify (according to my understanding): Arian was making the point that I was speaking from a privileged position regarding "do we need military or not", on the premise that I am not in a war-torn country, and therefore not in a position to speak on the matter. I then responded that I am not speaking from a privileged position, because I wasn't making any assertions about needing militaries at all, precisely because of those complexities - and rather, I'm talking about the way that some community members feel comfortable behaving not just around the topic of Anduril but also previous conflicts (like RFC98), none of which are influenced by whether I am in a war-torn country 12:03:39
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunatYes, I agree, retrospectively.12:03:49
@arianvp:matrix.orgArianYour summary is correct joepie12:08:29
@joepie91:pixie.town@joepie91:pixie.town(FYI, setting the thread to slow mode does not solve the problem, and it is continuing to be a trashfire)15:53:55
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunatSuggesting some solution might help. (to the moderation team; others probably can't enforce it)15:57:45
@joepie91:pixie.town@joepie91:pixie.townI did, several years ago.15:58:47
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunatWe could close the topic.15:58:49
@joepie91:pixie.town@joepie91:pixie.townactually starting to moderate bad-faith arguing.15:59:00
@joepie91:pixie.town@joepie91:pixie.townincluding sealioning and other forms of concern trolling.15:59:14
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunatMost of the latest posts got hidden, probably due to user flags. (also your last post; I can't see why... perhaps I don't think I have sufficient privileges)16:02:55
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunat * Most of the latest posts got hidden, probably due to user flags. (also your last post; I can't see why... perhaps I don't think I have sufficient privileges to see)16:03:11
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunatWell, I'm not a best person to try moderating discussions anyway.16:03:27
@joepie91:pixie.town@joepie91:pixie.townthey seem to be auto-hidden due to 'community flags', ie. a number of people flagging it16:03:42
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunatI might've even made this topic worse by my posts.16:03:48
@joepie91:pixie.town@joepie91:pixie.townbased on the automated messages I have gotten from Discourse16:03:52
@joepie91:pixie.town@joepie91:pixie.town(and I have a pretty good idea of why that happened)16:04:03
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunatPeople with moderation rights can easily override the results of flagging. And often discourse pings them anyway if it's uncertain whether to hide posts or not. Or something like that (I have moderation rights on a different discourse instance).16:05:24
@joepie91:pixie.town@joepie91:pixie.townyeah, that is why I have not been loudly complaining about the flagging; I'm waiting to see if a moderator resolves the issue16:05:57
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunatRight now people are busy with NixCon, so I don't expect the moderation team to be reacting within an hour.16:06:03
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunatI could close it. I seem to have permissions for that, but I doubt it would help significantly.16:06:46
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunatUsually someone opens another related topic and it's even worse.16:07:36
@joepie91:pixie.town@joepie91:pixie.townI think closing it would only help if a) there was a specified time period for which the topic as a whole were banned forum-wide, after which it will be considered when more moderator capacity is available, and b) that were actually enforced on new threads as well16:09:21
@joepie91:pixie.town@joepie91:pixie.townunder any other circumstances, yeah, I expect it to just get worse16:09:38
@joepie91:pixie.town@joepie91:pixie.town(like, "this will be closed for the next N days until nixcon is over and moderators can dig into what happened" or so)16:10:15
@adam:robins.wtfadamcstephens (buzz) I think the closing of the thread was the best choice. It’s clear there are fundamental disagreements about how the world does and should work, and continuing to take jabs at and build intolerance towards each other is not good for the community. While I know where I stand, it’s clear to me that the thread was never going to provide any sort of resolution.  I will say, for my part, I’m sorry if I participated in furthering the divide.        16:48:32
@raitobezarius:matrix.orgraitobezarius
In reply to @vcunat:matrix.org
Right now people are busy with NixCon, so I don't expect the moderation team to be reacting within an hour.
We do follow the situation as much as we do FWIW
16:51:00
@ttamttam:matrix.orgttamttam joined the room.17:54:45
@ttamttam:matrix.orgttamttam

+1 to joepie91 🏳️‍🌈's assessment. I don't want to speak too much outside my experience as a privileged tech dude, but I'm going to go ahead and try to provide some more perspective. If I get something wrong please feel free to correct me (you can DM me or call me out publicly) and I'll remove/amend what I've put here.

What many of us are missing is that concern trolling and debate (I.e. arguing to win) tactics are often used to further silence marginalized people. If you spend a large amount of your life with dogwhistles and bad faith arguments directed at you then they start having a certain overpowering loudness to them. The worst part is to most people on the outside these tactics look benign, even when they're used to shut down the voices of those who are marginalized.
People who "just ask hard questions" and "have concerns" often do so and bring up lofty ideas like (their) free speech, and freeze up the entire conversion. This pushes out the marginalized people who have to deal with the real consequences of the topic of the debate. The people being pushed out rightfully find their mental well being and sometimes literal safety not worth membership in an online group that won't take their grievances seriously.
Sometimes this is done intentionally, sometimes it isn't, the result is the same. When you are constantly the target of bad faith attempts to shut down your voice, even if someone unwittingly makes those same arguments, that's going to feel like an attack on you. Because you're used to it (more often then not) being a bad faith attempt at silencing you.

Let's also not pretend that everyone in the Nixos community is privileged or safe from conflict, even in the privileged US I have trans friends who are very rightly concerned about being in a literal firing line (state sanctioned or otherwise), and coworkers who fled to the United States from actual warzones.

And about the people making the arguments that they are going to be silenced by some leftist thought police: Well in some senses they are, depending how far down the rabbit hole they've gone. But I'd bet that 90% of people who raise this concern in good faith would never actually be censored, they just don't like the idea that maybe one day they might be called out and held accountable for what they say. And, like, not even in a bad way necessarily. Usually when I'm "held accountable for what I've said" it ends with me being much more enlightened about the issues others face; and the people I hurt feeling heard and respected by both me and the community we share. It's not like I'm driven out with pitchforks and torches with no chance for an apology or to clear up miscommunication. So all that is to say I consider "calling out the individual actions that drive marginalized people away" far more palatable than "protecting the voices of those doing the driving away".

19:52:10
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunatI'm repeatedly confused by these mentions of "marginalization" in context of that discourse thread, but I guess it's just me.20:08:18
@vcunat:matrix.orgvcunat * I'm repeatedly confused by these mentions of "marginalization" in context of that discourse thread, but I guess it's just me 🤷20:08:26

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