| 5 Sep 2023 |
 raitobezarius | If by the time we get there (and I say this without any sarcasm), we still have enough of the folks involved not burned out, it would be nice to have a complete true post mortem | 12:57:36 |
 @joepie91:pixie.town | yeah, that is understandable. the important thing to me is that it's dealt with transparently, so that everybody in the community can understand what happened and where we stand on it | 12:57:49 |
| raitobezarius | I will do my best to deliver on this while trying to ensure that nothing uglier happens at this point of the ongoing crisis | 12:58:33 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | thanks | 12:59:09 |
| raitobezarius | * I will do my best to deliver on this while trying to ensure that nothing uglier happens at this point of the ongoing situation | 15:02:09 |
|  cyclopentane ⭔ joined the room. | 19:27:27 |
|  Arian joined the room. | 20:49:46 |
| 6 Sep 2023 |
 vcunat | Crossing my fingers that noone gets burnt out around this. Or around nixos.org generally really :-) | 15:57:08 |
 unknown | anyone want a nixcon ticket? I don't think I'll be going due to a deadline at work.... | 20:01:32 |
 Artturin | post here https://discourse.nixos.org/t/nixcon-2023-darmstadt-germany/29466 | 20:03:31 |
| unknown | alr ty | 20:03:39 |
| 8 Sep 2023 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | posting about this here as requested by raitobezarius... this thread is turning into a shitshow of concern trolling and murder machine apologism and something should probably be done about that: https://discourse.nixos.org/t/nixcon-sponsored-by-military/32626 | 00:24:54 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | slight correction: not just concern trolling, but a variety of bad-faith discussion tactics | 00:26:02 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | * slight correction: not just concern trolling, but a variety of bad-faith discussion tactics, including but not limited to concern trolling | 00:26:13 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | (specifically, it deeply concerns me how many people there are in the community who consider this acceptable behaviour or beliefs to hold, and makes me feel rather unsafe as a result) | 00:31:18 |
 proofconstruction | The handling of this situation underscores the need for establishing at least the following:
- a community code of conduct, to provide guidance and establish boundaries for safe and productive coordination,
- tighter sponsorship guidelines for (quasi?) official events, to help clarify accountability in these cases,
- clarification of what constitutes an official event (in my opinion, only explicitly-Foundation-organized events should carry the "official" status, with the relevant communications coming from individuals explicitly acting as representatives of the Foundation),
- better practices around public-facing messaging in general (I understand everyone is very busy with last-minute preparations, but we still have not seen a statement about how and why the decision was made to accept this sponsorship, nor its reversal),
- community moderators who carry responsibility for ensuring the code of conduct is adhered to, and who are publicly accountable for any actions taken (some of this responsibility is already held by the Moderation Team, but my intention here is to further distribute that burden to community members whose only job is this, and who do not also hold high-profile maintainer positions on other teams; these folks tend to be too busy to actively and consistently participate in faster-paced contexts like Discourse threads or in the many unofficial channels)
| 01:45:40 |
| proofconstruction | * The handling of this situation underscores the need for establishing at least the following:
- a community code of conduct, to provide guidance and establish boundaries for safe and productive coordination,
- tighter sponsorship guidelines for (quasi?) official events, to help clarify accountability in these cases,
- clarification of what constitutes an official event (in my opinion, only explicitly-Foundation-organized events should carry the "official" status, with the relevant communications coming from Foundation-labeled accounts or individuals explicitly acting as representatives of the Foundation),
- better practices around public-facing messaging in general (I understand everyone is very busy with last-minute preparations, but we still have not seen a statement about how and why the decision was made to accept this sponsorship, nor its reversal),
- community moderators who carry responsibility for ensuring the code of conduct is adhered to, and who are publicly accountable for any actions taken (some of this responsibility is already held by the Moderation Team, but my intention here is to further distribute that burden to community members whose only job is this, and who do not also hold high-profile maintainer positions on other teams; these folks tend to be too busy to actively and consistently participate in faster-paced contexts like Discourse threads or in the many unofficial channels)
| 02:05:01 |
| vcunat | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
(specifically, it deeply concerns me how many people there are in the community who consider this acceptable behaviour or beliefs to hold, and makes me feel rather unsafe as a result) The community is large, like thousands of people. It's inevitable to contain all kinds of people 🤷 I don't think this is basis to feel unsafe; I'm quite sure nixos.org community is a better sample than people one meets in person. Controversial topics will just highlight more extreme opinions. | 05:48:13 |
 Domen Kožar | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
(specifically, it deeply concerns me how many people there are in the community who consider this acceptable behaviour or beliefs to hold, and makes me feel rather unsafe as a result) In a diverse community as Nix, there will be people from all over the world, holding pretty much any belief there is on the spectrum. That's why we have moderation team to resolve any personal attacks and making sure these don't happen regardless of your belief. If you feel unsafe due to other beliefs,I understand and I know it can be difficult, there's not much we can do I'm afraid. | 07:19:57 |
| Domen Kožar | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
(specifically, it deeply concerns me how many people there are in the community who consider this acceptable behaviour or beliefs to hold, and makes me feel rather unsafe as a result) * In a diverse community as Nix, there will be people from all over the world, holding pretty much any belief there is on the spectrum. That's why we have moderation team to resolve any personal attacks and making sure these don't happen regardless of any belief. If you feel unsafe due to other beliefs,I understand and I know it can be difficult, there's not much we can do I'm afraid. | 07:20:20 |
| Domen Kožar | * In a diverse community as Nix, there will be people from all over the world, holding pretty much any belief there is on the spectrum. That's why we have moderation team to resolve any personal attacks and making sure these don't happen regardless of any belief. If you feel unsafe due to other beliefs, I understand and I know it can be difficult, there's not much we can do I'm afraid. | 07:24:08 |
| Domen Kožar | There used to be guidelines around communities to avoid politics, but as those are being frowned upon these days, beliefs come out and consequently, intense negative feelings come out.
The world is a messy place and if one can't tolerate that, I can only suggest to build the personal boundaries not to engage in these discussions. | 07:28:04 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | if the stance to "I feel unsafe in this community because of murder apologists roaming free" is "well there's nothing we can do about it", well... that seems like a good reason to reconsider my involvement in this community, because apparently there is no intention to protect people | 10:01:01 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | there absolutely are things you can do about it, whether you actually choose to do so is a different matter | 10:01:20 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | but don't try to trivialize this by pretending that there are no options, or trying to downplay my concerns | 10:01:43 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | because the reality is that if this community cannot meet the bar of "identifying and speaking out against fascists", then when (not if, when) I am in the firing line, I know whose back people will have and it will not be mine | 10:02:39 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | and I have no desire to be a part of such a community | 10:02:44 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | * because the reality is that if this community cannot meet the low low bar of "identifying and speaking out against fascists", then when (not if, when) I am in the firing line, I know whose back people will have and it will not be mine | 10:02:51 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | so please spare me the "there is nothing we can do about this", and actually take responsibility for what you will or will not do to make this a safe community | 10:03:34 |
| Arian | Calling people supporting military murder apologists and facsists is not okay. Excuse me | 10:03:36 |
