| 9 Apr 2024 |
 raitobezarius | In reply to @jakegrin:matrix.org
I heard Ryan visited Anduril HQ. You mean me? | 10:29:47 |
 jakegrin | Redacted or Malformed Event | 10:30:28 |
 Jonas Chevalier | In reply to @delroth:delroth.net
I don't know where to start: the foundation is involved in this, the board was asked to approve an Anduril sponsorship (post NixCon EU incident) and approved it, there are meeting notes about this. I think that's a big part of the conflict. If you view the foundation as a machine, you want the machine to have predictable outcomes. So the way a decision is made is to take some input, like a sponsorship request, pass it trough some filters, like the foundation mission statement (which we did), and then base your decision on that. | 10:30:39 |
| Jonas Chevalier | I am not naive and I know there is this pro/anti thing going on as well. | 10:31:31 |
|  Alyssa Ross left the room. | 10:31:36 |
 delroth | In reply to @zimbatm:numtide.com
I think that's a big part of the conflict. If you view the foundation as a machine, you want the machine to have predictable outcomes. So the way a decision is made is to take some input, like a sponsorship request, pass it trough some filters, like the foundation mission statement (which we did), and then base your decision on that. I don't view the foundation as a machine, I don't think that's ever desirable. Case in point: your "machine" couldn't evaluate that taking an Anduril sponsorship would possibly permanently damage the community. | 10:33:21 |
| delroth | Maybe humans could have if they decided to think about it and listen. | 10:33:33 |
| Jonas Chevalier | I think you're making my point :) | 10:34:22 |
| Jonas Chevalier | I'm not saying if it's good or bad, just offering a different perspective | 10:35:02 |
 Janik (they/them) | In reply to @jakegrin:matrix.org
Do foundation members have financial ties with Anduril in some way? Is there a conflict of interest? I can only speak for myself, I obviously do not have any ties to anduril.
No idea about Flox, DetSys and Tweag. | 10:35:48 |
| Janik (they/them) | In reply to @jakegrin:matrix.org
No ryantm Ryantm is not associated with the board as far as I'm aware. | 10:36:33 |
| Jonas Chevalier | Too much of the conversation is stuck in pro/con land. But actually we all care about NixOS, otherwise we wouldn't be here. Some of the conflict is in the misunderstanding. | 10:36:34 |
| delroth | In reply to @zimbatm:numtide.com
Too much of the conversation is stuck in pro/con land. But actually we all care about NixOS, otherwise we wouldn't be here. Some of the conflict is in the misunderstanding. What misunderstanding? Yes, it's pro/con land. What are you expecting? "Oh actually no I'm ok with autonomous weapons they made a good point"? | 10:37:36 |
| Jonas Chevalier | Ok, nevermind | 10:40:03 |
 piegames | I think we tried really hard on reaching a policy which dodges the pro/com MIC issue. And as of yesterday, I convinced that the approach failed and that we need am alternative | 10:41:17 |
| delroth | To expand on my previous point: this is the problem with pushing people past their unnegotiable ethical boundaries. No, people don't usually compromise on that, or they do so against significant well-being. You'd think the people pushing for MIC sponsorships would realize that and stop, but I'm starting to suspect they enjoy fragmenting the community. | 10:50:48 |
 Julien | In reply to @zimbatm:numtide.com
Numtide has no financial ties to Anduril or any military contractors Can Determinate Systems make the same statement ? | 10:51:41 |
| delroth | (And the situation is not symmetrical: nobody is asking people that support the MIC agenda or work for MIC companies to not be part of the community.) | 10:52:01 |
| delroth | * (And the situation is not symmetrical: nobody is asking people that support the MIC agenda or work for MIC companies to not be part of the community. At least no significant amount of people.) | 10:52:25 |
| Jonas Chevalier | Yeah, I don't know why this situation has to be forced TBH | 10:54:56 |
| Jonas Chevalier | We should just pick a bunch of sponsors that feel good and that are non-controversial, and enjoy the conf | 10:55:20 |
| delroth | yes | 10:55:25 |
| delroth | that's all I'm asking for | 10:55:33 |
| Jonas Chevalier | same | 10:55:39 |
| Jonas Chevalier | we get lost in all of these other things | 10:56:00 |
| Julien | In reply to @zimbatm:numtide.com
Can I maybe also clear some misunderstanding I see. I think there is a conflict in expectations of what is excepted from the board. There are largely two different models that I see.
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One is that the foundation is in charge of the community, and makes decisions for the community. This is a more heavy handed approach.
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The other one is that the foundation is in service to the community, and is more like a fiscal host, legal proxy, .. and would leave more of the decisions up to the community.
When the foundation says it doesn't want to be involved in this, I think it largely stems in wanting to be (2). Internally, the discussion we had is that no-military is a difficult criteria to apply since there is so many gradients in there, and we didn't feel equipped to deal with this.
I would like to dispel this idea that the foundation is pro military. I don't think this is what is happening.
Does that help a little bit?
I understand that as a general policy the foundation prefers to let the community find consensus on its own, but on this instance consensus between such opposed view is impossible and the stakes are just too high. The board has to take its responsibility and take a decision that in any case cannot content 100% of the community. | 10:56:17 |
| Julien | In reply to @zimbatm:numtide.com
We should just pick a bunch of sponsors that feel good and that are non-controversial, and enjoy the conf We are asking precisely that yes ! Just take uncontroversial sponsors. | 10:56:46 |
| Jonas Chevalier | Agreed, and on many dimensions, not just MIL | 10:57:17 |
| Julien | Yes, it's about taking sponsors that will not hurt the community | 10:57:41 |
| Julien | We want to avoid a superset of sponsors that probably include MIC but not onlyu | 10:58:20 |
