| 18 Jul 2025 |
 [0x4A6F] | I did something back then: https://github.com/NixOS/infra/wiki/Tombstoning-a-room-on-Matrix | 17:29:54 |
 emily | if the admins can just run a draupnir command and get every room upgraded that would be great I assume | 17:30:22 |
 Cat | essentially im going to say that in addition to how i already wrote about the broken words we use for moderation im going to write about the broken community structures most communities have and the primary group that doesnt are actually communities with heavy corporate influence.
One of those bits of shit that is broken on matrix is that we dont make all rooms owned by either the administrative team or T&S depending on how the community is setup. That way all room admins who leave the community can be demoted for everyones saftey. | 17:30:26 |
| emily | probably even one command per room would be a big help | 17:30:32 |
| Cat | The reason why communities with corporate influence tend to organise healthy is because corporations learned how to organise properly already. They know that Security, IT administration and Human Relations are not something that the same people are good at. So separate them.
Communities need to understand that your admins need not be moderators. Leave moderation to moderators and administration to administrators even if they sometimes are the same creature with diffrent hats.
So thats the TLDR of what my post will be about and this will materialise in Draupnir with Draupnir supporting this pattern of having a team own stuff so that team members can come and go without it being a security risk. | 17:33:21 |
| Cat | So since Draupnir must be able to create your rooms now it also needs a manual room upgrade command even if its a rudementary one at that. | 17:34:24 |
| emily | In reply to @0x4a6f:matrix.org
I did something back then: https://github.com/NixOS/infra/wiki/Tombstoning-a-room-on-Matrix good grief has @k900:0upti.me really been doing this | 17:35:22 |
| Cat | Thats a creative solution to the problem. | 17:36:54 |
| Cat | using 2 tombstones. | 17:37:03 |
| Cat | https://gitea.blesmrt.net/mikaela/scripts/src/branch/master/bash/matrix-upgrade-room.bash is the script i like to refer to. | 17:38:08 |
| emily | I'm inferring that the bug v12 tries to fix is "an attacker can make a room's state permanently screwed up beyond fixing" | 17:39:22 |
| emily | though I wouldn't have expected them to put out that softening statement on the urgency if any arbitrary attacker can do that, hmm | 17:39:35 |
 f0x | huh, but the predecessor event_id being the tombstone wasn't even that important right, just happens to be what Synapse does since it can create chicken and egg at the same time | 17:40:00 |
| Cat | its important but the exact event ID is not. | 17:41:02 |
| Cat | as in feel free to pick any event ID you want people to get jumped to | 17:41:20 |
| Cat | And even then that feature is maby getting removed for v12 because they are being dumb with thinking their chicken and egg dance is actually needed. | 17:41:46 |
| f0x | right yeah | 17:41:54 |
| Cat | my powershell script when i do upgrade with notice | 17:42:11 |
| Cat | i literally use the event ID that the API returns as the value | 17:42:32 |
| emily | In reply to @charles:computer.surgery
I personally am interested in other protocols at this point (ones that exist or not?) | 17:42:38 |
| [0x4A6F] | Best thing is to also disallow changes to the tombstone room, otherwise nick changes and avatar changes might be annoying. | 17:42:42 |
| Cat | as in my notice message is the event ID i use. | 17:42:43 |
| Cat | Those cant be blocked but yes do send a PL event to block everything else. | 17:43:04 |
| f0x | yeah that makes sense, in the past I just used the last message event id in the old room | 17:43:06 |
| Cat | And that spam is why the removal is so dumb | 17:43:15 |
| Cat | because now we have to scroll thru it | 17:43:21 |
| Cat | instead of jumping past it. | 17:43:26 |
 Charles | not sure yet, i want to do some shopping around; maybe something i would be comfortable using exists already. i'm looking for something with, uh, worse availability guarantees, i guess | 17:44:17 |
| emily | I hope searching the old iteration of a room seamlessly isn't going to break | 17:44:18 |
| emily | except that's also a threat model if the room owner can continue spamming in the old one now huh | 17:44:36 |
