| 16 Mar 2024 |
 Gavin R | threads are very important though - but i think the would be best implimented once some kind of proper graph relationship is acknowledged | 20:29:49 |
 @fractivore:cyberia.club | In reply to @gavinrogers:matrix.org
they seem to work it's just a lack of uptake, people don't interact with the UX They're totally unimplemented on a lot of common clients, like fluffychat which uses the "nested replies" fallback. I think a good start would be to get them implemented at all on common clients which don't support them at all yet. | 20:30:48 |
| @fractivore:cyberia.club | In reply to @gavinrogers:matrix.org
threads are very important though - but i think the would be best implimented once some kind of proper graph relationship is acknowledged Can you elaborate more on that "proper graph relationship acknowledgement"? I'm not following. | 20:32:01 |
| Gavin R | when the room split earlier, user jesopo described it quite well | 20:33:13 |
| Gavin R | it's a natural result of having messages exist in a federated world | 20:33:33 |
| Gavin R | the problem is that it's not officially acknowledged. we acknowledge the same problem in our software dependancies and the ceptr project was one place that saw the relationship to message systems | 20:34:51 |
| Gavin R | at least i and one other guy did | 20:35:02 |
| Gavin R | i mean you can solve this problem with Token Ring and etc | 20:36:21 |
| Gavin R | basically make sure that no one gets out of sync | 20:36:32 |
| Gavin R | Token Ring networking didn't scale super well, it was ok for some LANs. i think we have the knowledgebase within the nixos community to build something that works on a DAG | 20:37:17 |
| Gavin R | there is a single starting point that everything points to - basically whatever user writes the first "hello world" (quite literally, as a message) | 20:38:02 |
| Gavin R | everything else.... should point to something that points to that. if it doesn't, it doesn't belong. and we can make tools which allow the mathematics to do all the work for us | 20:38:44 |
| Gavin R | in fact you can apply set theory to groups of messages | 20:38:58 |
| Gavin R | that could prevent a lot of bandwidth wastage of which the matrix protocol is very guilty, let's be honest | 20:39:52 |
 K900 | Matrix room state is a DAG | 20:40:18 |
| Gavin R | there are optimisations now, it's not as expensive to run a homeserver as it used to be, but those optimisations are not elegant | 20:40:27 |
| K900 | You're literally describing how it already works | 20:40:31 |
| Gavin R | i know i'm just saying the docs and the code dont work from that conceptualisation | 20:41:17 |
| K900 | The problem isn't the DAG, the problem is consistency | 20:41:10 |
| K900 | I don't know what docs you mean, but I've looked at state resolution code in both Synapse and Ruma, and both are very much a DAG | 20:42:27 |
| Gavin R | agreed! and i think that comes because the people working on the implimentation(s) aren't aware of what they are working on | 20:42:27 |
| Gavin R | that's good i haven't looked at either in ages so i could be speaking out of turn | 20:43:04 |
| K900 | And the spec explicitly refers to room stage as a graph literally in the first sentence: https://spec.matrix.org/latest/#event-graphs | 20:43:10 |
| K900 | * And the spec explicitly refers to room state as a graph literally in the first sentence: https://spec.matrix.org/latest/#event-graphs | 20:44:33 |
| Gavin R | as was said in the other room, it's the implimentation that suffers. i'm not saying i have the answers | 20:50:15 |
| Gavin R | and i'm also writing this on a tiny pinephone og with a cheap as chips bt kb so - maybe i'm not going to solve all the problems here and now | 20:50:58 |
| Gavin R | i was just trying to answer some questions. thanks for the info - i will reference it | 20:51:13 |
| Gavin R | i think actually i recall jason talking about this in the ruma room a while ago so it's good that their implimentation has kept these things in mind | 20:51:38 |
| Gavin R | as i said, it's a graph whether we acknolwedge it or not. i'm only noting that it will be an easier to manage graph if it's treated as such. using the tools of lambda calculus to make this easier seems important to me | 20:52:41 |
|  @rhendric:nixos.devchanged room power levels. | 21:08:36 |
