| 16 Jul 2025 |
 K900 | But you still need to agree on the set of roughtime servers to trust | 20:34:32 |
| K900 | Or include a giant pile of receipts in every state event just in case someone in the federation trusts that particular server | 20:35:21 |
 @magic_rb:matrix.redalder.org | Distributed systems are hard :( | 20:38:06 |
 c-x-berger | http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mickens/files/thesaddestmoment.pdf | 20:38:22 |
| c-x-berger | * for further reading http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mickens/files/thesaddestmoment.pdf | 20:38:37 |
 emily | https://developers.cloudflare.com/time-services/roughtime/ fwiw | 20:55:30 |
| emily | cloudflare kinda adopted the protocol from google at this point | 20:55:43 |
| emily | they do run a server | 20:55:46 |
 Zhaofeng Li | In reply to @k900:0upti.me
But you still need to agree on the set of roughtime servers to trust So the answer is still some level of centralization then. Maybe this can be done on the room-level, where the room creator decides on a set of homeservers that maintain the canonical room state | 21:03:10 |
 Charles | that is hilarious, thank you for sharing | 23:22:38 |
| c-x-berger |
- you're welcome
- i highly recommend the rest of James Mickens' writings for USENIX if you liked that one https://mickens.seas.harvard.edu/wisdom-james-mickens (scroll to "USENIX articles")
| 23:25:27 |
 f0x | In reply to @c-x-berger:boiler.social
http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mickens/files/thesaddestmoment.pdf really nice :D | 23:33:25 |
| 17 Jul 2025 |
|  mannp joined the room. | 11:31:31 |
| 18 Jul 2025 |
|  @nyxvectar:matrix.org changed their display name from Nyxvectar to Nyxvectar Yan. | 09:55:17 |
|  @haauler:matrix.org joined the room. | 14:22:39 |
 Cat | So considering the whole v12 situation i assume that the nix procedure for adding rooms to the space has to be rewritten and restructured.
Procedure im talking about is found at https://github.com/NixOS/moderation/blob/main/matrix/adding-rooms.md | 17:00:38 |
| Cat | essentially v12 room creators have infinite power. | 17:00:59 |
| emily | is there no way for them to demote themselves ever? | 17:01:14 |
| Cat | so that breaks this handover process meaning your adoption process likely needs to change to using a manual room upgrade to adopt existing rooms. | 17:01:24 |
| Cat | Yes that power is permanent. | 17:01:38 |
| Cat | and cant be modified post creation. | 17:01:45 |
| emily | wtf | 17:01:48 |
| emily | that seems like a terrible flaw | 17:01:57 |
| emily | I guess if upgrades can override it that's not the end of the world | 17:02:10 |
| Cat | The community theory is that its a fix for that State Res fixes in v12 are not perfect. | 17:02:26 |
| emily | could room creators "undo a tombstone" in that case? | 17:02:29 |
| Cat | as in the state res fixes in v12 likely can fail and reset anyways so they made the room creators have infinite power so they can fix the state back to proper. | 17:03:17 |
| emily | ...so this means that after all that talk about whether Matrix's sacrifices to have rooms not controlled by one homeserver are worth it, now rooms are going to be controlled by one nameserver | 17:03:22 |
| Cat | They are still going to have decentralised control its just a set of master servers can overrule it. | 17:03:53 |
| Cat | as you can define additional creators. | 17:03:59 |
