| 15 Apr 2025 |
 @emma:rory.gay | they dont, but that's an unreasonably low message rate for a server as small as mine | 23:07:15 |
 uep | and then we get back to relying on reputation systems and other mechanisms | 23:07:24 |
 Cat | https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/pull/4084 | 23:07:49 |
| @emma:rory.gay | im not going to because im not hostile, but i totally could spam hundreds of messages per second here | 23:07:52 |
| uep | sure, the point is it's not about the number, it's about the distributed nature of the problem and the response mechanism | 23:08:10 |
| @emma:rory.gay | probably get a few thousand if not tens or hundreds of thousands in before even hitting any kind of spam ban thing you might have set up | 23:08:34 |
| Cat | Also Emma just so you know. Bots shouldnt scale that far. Wrong API. | 23:08:53 |
| Cat | Appservices yes regular bots fuck no. | 23:09:00 |
 Dandellion | sure, you could get a bunch of backup servers and move over, but that is a lot less elegant | 23:09:07 |
| @emma:rory.gay | not wrong api | 23:09:16 |
| Dandellion | with other-room-membership join rules and knocking one can build protection at ingress points and it would be pretty effective | 23:09:21 |
| @emma:rory.gay | appservies use the same API | 23:09:21 |
| uep | In reply to @emma:rory.gay
im not going to because im not hostile, but i totally could spam hundreds of messages per second here and mjolnir's response to that is a basic rate limit, that lets you configure the number of messages, but not the time interval, which is fixed at a minute. | 23:09:21 |
| Cat | You shouldnt be expected to keep up with HS wide Federation line rate on /sync | 23:09:25 |
| @emma:rory.gay | yes, which is easily circumvented lol | 23:09:44 |
| Cat | Wait thats not configurable in Mjolnir. I keep forgetting how bad things are over in Mjolnir land on that front. | 23:10:08 |
| @emma:rory.gay | nor is it in draupnir, wdym | 23:10:21 |
| Dandellion | most pieces are in the protocol, no one just ever built the tooling | 23:10:24 |
| uep | we'll happily use it when it's built, as will everyone else suffering the current bullshit | 23:11:03 |
| @emma:rory.gay | the tooling is built into your homeserver | 23:11:21 |
| Cat | i forgot the convo talked about messages per interval not interval even then that whole protection is ancient scrap. | 23:11:31 |
| @emma:rory.gay | (and any homeserver that doesnt implement it simply cant parttake in your rooms) | 23:12:04 |
| Dandellion | I'm not talking about ACLs | 23:12:23 |
| Cat | Emma the question isnt about primitives its about the tooling to effectively use them. | 23:12:26 |
| @emma:rory.gay | neither am i | 23:12:28 |
| @emma:rory.gay | im talking about restricted joins | 23:12:34 |
| @emma:rory.gay | * im talking about restricted joins and knocking | 23:12:43 |
| Cat | Also the primitives are severely lacking anyways theres a reason i have MSCs open to fix them. | 23:12:53 |
| @emma:rory.gay | i love how this doesnt load lol | 23:13:24 |
| @emma:rory.gay | have a few matrix.org foundation rooms to explain how ineffective mjolnir can be (these are sent in seconds): | 23:14:39 |
