| 15 Apr 2025 |
 emily | right. | 23:03:00 |
| emily | I mean "actually rooms aren't owned by any homeserver" is a cool party trick. | 23:03:18 |
| emily | but it sure feels like the harms outweigh the costs for us on multiple fronts | 23:03:26 |
 Dandellion | It's pretty sick when one goes down and the rest keep talking as if nothing happened tbh | 23:03:47 |
 @emma:rory.gay | fun fact: draupnir and mjolnir are written in a way where they kind of just expect you to be running a monolithic homeserver, not synapse with workers | 23:03:58 |
 Cat | Explain to me how that is true? | 23:04:13 |
| @emma:rory.gay | can draupnir keep up with 500 messages/s? | 23:04:26 |
| Cat | That isnt a homeserver size issue. Thats a the bot isnt supposed to scale out that far. | 23:04:53 |
 uep | in a sense it doesn't matter.. it's already losing if it has to react and publish more messages to deal with them | 23:05:02 |
| @emma:rory.gay | not a single protocol can do redactions without sending more traffic | 23:05:22 |
| uep | the fact that attackers send 500m/s as the threshold where the responses are overloaded is more effect than it is cause | 23:06:04 |
| emily | I agree when you're talking about people in the room | 23:06:08 |
| Cat | Emma Array Redactions is whats being refered to. | 23:06:19 |
| emily | I'm not sure "nixos.org Matrix works when nixos.org infra is down" is very valuable to us | 23:06:23 |
| Cat | The fact you have to currently fight Symetric warfare. | 23:06:29 |
| emily | beyond like, having a place for the infra team to coordinate for that emergency, which could just be a room on another HS | 23:06:33 |
 dgrig | It's indeed a cool patry trick, which works amazingly well when you trust all the participants. It works great for the rooms I have with friends where no moderation is needed. It also works great for a closed federation like the one element wants to sell with their clients. Doesn't work that great for a public room anyone can join | 23:06:56 |
| uep | In reply to @emma:rory.gay
not a single protocol can do redactions without sending more traffic correct, which is why more moderation features as distributed policy is needed in a system that's built on distributed delivery | 23:06:57 |
| emily | like nobody considers it a big problem that when discourse.nixos.org goes down people can't use the forum. we just keep it up. since as a project we already rely on a lot of infra | 23:07:02 |
| @emma:rory.gay | they dont, but that's an unreasonably low message rate for a server as small as mine | 23:07:15 |
| uep | and then we get back to relying on reputation systems and other mechanisms | 23:07:24 |
| Cat | https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/pull/4084 | 23:07:49 |
| @emma:rory.gay | im not going to because im not hostile, but i totally could spam hundreds of messages per second here | 23:07:52 |
| uep | sure, the point is it's not about the number, it's about the distributed nature of the problem and the response mechanism | 23:08:10 |
| @emma:rory.gay | probably get a few thousand if not tens or hundreds of thousands in before even hitting any kind of spam ban thing you might have set up | 23:08:34 |
| Cat | Also Emma just so you know. Bots shouldnt scale that far. Wrong API. | 23:08:53 |
| Cat | Appservices yes regular bots fuck no. | 23:09:00 |
| Dandellion | sure, you could get a bunch of backup servers and move over, but that is a lot less elegant | 23:09:07 |
| @emma:rory.gay | not wrong api | 23:09:16 |
