| 15 Apr 2025 |
 @emma:rory.gay | * if not completely replace draupnir/mjolnir's redaction functionality with something that is capable of using synapse workers | 23:01:05 |
 uep | * | 23:01:23 |
 emily | it seems like the fundamental problem is that we want nixos.org to be a blocking, authoritative, single point of failure for message delivery, for moderation reasons. we suffer from not having it and also basically don't benefit in almost any way from avoiding it | 23:01:44 |
| emily | but that's fundamentally antithetical to Matrix's architecture | 23:01:53 |
| emily | that's not even about federated identity per se, it's about rooms themselves being distributed/leaderless | 23:02:11 |
| uep | not really, but almost | 23:02:16 |
| emily | e.g. I don't think XMPP groups work like that? | 23:02:18 |
 Dandellion | you're right | 23:02:24 |
| @emma:rory.gay | xmpp groups are fully centralsied with decentralised IDs | 23:02:41 |
| Dandellion | something something linearized matrix | 23:02:44 |
 dgrig | They don't, xmpp MUCs are centralized to a single server | 23:02:46 |
| emily | right. | 23:03:00 |
| emily | I mean "actually rooms aren't owned by any homeserver" is a cool party trick. | 23:03:18 |
| emily | but it sure feels like the harms outweigh the costs for us on multiple fronts | 23:03:26 |
| Dandellion | It's pretty sick when one goes down and the rest keep talking as if nothing happened tbh | 23:03:47 |
| @emma:rory.gay | fun fact: draupnir and mjolnir are written in a way where they kind of just expect you to be running a monolithic homeserver, not synapse with workers | 23:03:58 |
 Cat | Explain to me how that is true? | 23:04:13 |
| @emma:rory.gay | can draupnir keep up with 500 messages/s? | 23:04:26 |
| Cat | That isnt a homeserver size issue. Thats a the bot isnt supposed to scale out that far. | 23:04:53 |
| uep | in a sense it doesn't matter.. it's already losing if it has to react and publish more messages to deal with them | 23:05:02 |
| @emma:rory.gay | not a single protocol can do redactions without sending more traffic | 23:05:22 |
| uep | the fact that attackers send 500m/s as the threshold where the responses are overloaded is more effect than it is cause | 23:06:04 |
| emily | I agree when you're talking about people in the room | 23:06:08 |
| Cat | Emma Array Redactions is whats being refered to. | 23:06:19 |
| emily | I'm not sure "nixos.org Matrix works when nixos.org infra is down" is very valuable to us | 23:06:23 |
| Cat | The fact you have to currently fight Symetric warfare. | 23:06:29 |
| emily | beyond like, having a place for the infra team to coordinate for that emergency, which could just be a room on another HS | 23:06:33 |
| dgrig | It's indeed a cool patry trick, which works amazingly well when you trust all the participants. It works great for the rooms I have with friends where no moderation is needed. It also works great for a closed federation like the one element wants to sell with their clients. Doesn't work that great for a public room anyone can join | 23:06:56 |
| uep | In reply to @emma:rory.gay
not a single protocol can do redactions without sending more traffic correct, which is why more moderation features as distributed policy is needed in a system that's built on distributed delivery | 23:06:57 |
| emily | like nobody considers it a big problem that when discourse.nixos.org goes down people can't use the forum. we just keep it up. since as a project we already rely on a lot of infra | 23:07:02 |
