| 13 May 2025 |
 K900 | I'm all ears | 12:47:19 |
 truh | Is this community specifically getting targeted or is it the same in other matrix communities?
I'm worried that if it's an automated process with multiple steps, that's actually quite easy for bots to perform but very annoying for regular users. | 12:47:34 |
| K900 | I fully recognize Matrix sucks but we also need to recognize that everything else generally tends to suck more | 12:47:39 |
 emily | I pretty confidently predict that we wouldn't be getting this spam if we used Zulip. I'm not saying that's because Zulip has solved moderation problems that Matrix hasn't but I'm relatively sure the cultural context and lack of federation means that it wouldn't be happening. | 12:47:45 |
| K900 | It's all large communities on Matrix | 12:47:51 |
| K900 | And the attacker is human | 12:48:00 |
| emily | (and I don't think the underlying reasons matter more to us than the practical outcome) | 12:48:04 |
| K900 | There is some level of automation, but it's not spray and pray | 12:48:10 |
| K900 | The attacker is aware of who they're targeting | 12:48:24 |
| K900 | And how effective they are | 12:48:35 |
| emily | (I think the counterargument is that moving off Matrix because of this is "letting the terrorists win", but I sort of think they're already winning.) | 12:48:54 |
| K900 | Zulip has some objective issues like push not working on self-hosted servers | 12:49:48 |
 adamcstephens | I think we suffer through matrix because it's one of the few non-proprietary solutions. But if it can't even provide us a place for having a publicly available chat, we should consider our options. | 12:49:55 |
| K900 | I feel like a lot of people in the community have been burned by The Governance Zulip Experience | 12:50:11 |
| K900 | Also, Zulip's moderation tools are objectively terrible and a targeted attack would do more damage there | 12:50:33 |
| K900 | Though I do believe that if we move to Zulip, we will not be targeted by this particular attack | 12:50:49 |
| truh | Zulip felt closer to discourse than to matrix/irc tbh | 12:51:01 |
| K900 | Zulip is somewhat of a middle ground, yes | 12:51:29 |
 Valodim | interesting comparison, yeah | 12:51:30 |
 @saiko:knifepoint.net | In reply to @k900:0upti.me
Zulip has some objective issues like push not working on self-hosted servers oh interesting. I didn’t even know you could self-host it | 12:51:42 |
| K900 | You can | 12:51:51 |
| @saiko:knifepoint.net | I thought it was proprietary haha | 12:51:53 |
| K900 | For some definition of | 12:51:59 |
| K900 | I'm really not sure what you're trying to argue for here | 12:52:32 |
| K900 | The options are being considered | 12:52:36 |
| K900 | There are no significantly better ones that we're aware of | 12:52:42 |
| K900 | If there's something specific you have in mind, please just say it | 12:52:49 |
| adamcstephens | You already shot down IRC and proprietary solutions, but why are both of those inherently off the table? | 12:53:10 |
| adamcstephens | And is that a collective stance, or just your personal? | 12:53:43 |
| emily | at some point if the Matrix becomes sufficiently inaccessible to users we will cede user support to Discord by default | 12:54:26 |
