b12f: thank you for the well reasoned response. If only we could have had more of this in the RFC thread and less assumption, things would have been a lot more productive. With that said, I'd like to dive in a bit if you don't mind:

I hope we don't have to discuss the obvious problems of misogyny and queerhate that the tech community faces.

I get the sentiment here, but this is also partially an issue for me. Why shouldn't we discuss it? Isn't that a requirement for actual understand, organizing and acting? Also, I'm not saying it doesn't exist, and I've seen plenty of examples of it in my own personal life and the wider internet, but I've yet to really see any major examples of this in any of the tech communities I have interacted with.

only valuable if everyone that wants to participate can participate.

Fully agree, but I think there is an important distinction to make here. Who is it exactly that made someone feel as though they couldn't participate? I think it matters if it's something external, vs an internal assumption without evidence. Not that I don't understand the latter, as I am totally familiar with feelings of shyness, and irrational fear of new people.

I just think, from my own experience at least, that this internal assumption is best addressed at a personal level, and a private chat with friends can surely be helpful with that as well, but what difference does it make if it is official or not? Either way, at some point I'd love for those individuals to just join us in the main chat, they may be surprised to find that myself and others would be more than happy to have them there.

Obviously, in the external case, things are different and moderation and understanding from the community and the leadership come in to play.

I think having a space in which people can talk freely about these kinds of issues and how they relate to the nix community is an important one

Absolutely! But in order to avoid that space from becoming an echo chamber which endlessly cycles through the problem without ever arrising at a solution, I personally think that space should eventually become the public rooms. A private chat is great to work up some courage, but at some point, if we really want to address something in the community, then it has to be addressed in the community yes?

b12f: thank you for the well reasoned response. If only we could have had more of this in the RFC thread and less assumption, things would have been a lot more productive. With that said, I'd like to dive in a bit if you don't mind:

I hope we don't have to discuss the obvious problems of misogyny and queerhate that the tech community faces.

I get the sentiment here, but this is also partially an issue for me. Why shouldn't we discuss it? Isn't that a requirement for actual understanding, organizing and acting? Also, I'm not saying it doesn't exist, and I've seen plenty of examples of it in my own personal life and the wider internet, but I've yet to really see any major examples of this in any of the tech communities I have interacted with. And that is a good thing!

only valuable if everyone that wants to participate can participate.

Fully agree, but I think there is an important distinction to make here. Who is it exactly that made someone feel as though they couldn't participate? I think it matters if it's something external, vs an internal assumption without evidence. Not that I don't understand the latter, as I am totally familiar with feelings of shyness, and irrational fear of new people.

I just think, from my own experience at least, that this internal assumption is best addressed at a personal level, and a private chat with friends can surely be helpful with that as well, but what difference does it make if it is official or not? Either way, at some point I'd love for those individuals to just join us in the main chat, they may be surprised to find that myself and others would be more than happy to have them there.

Obviously, in the external case, things are different and moderation and understanding from the community and the leadership come in to play.

I think having a space in which people can talk freely about these kinds of issues and how they relate to the nix community is an important one

Absolutely! But in order to avoid that space from becoming an echo chamber which endlessly cycles through the problem without ever arrising at a solution, I personally think that space should eventually become the public rooms. A private chat is great to work up some courage, but at some point, if we really want to address something in the community, then it has to be addressed in the community yes?

That's is a very important point. Cultivating a culture where the default public chat is assumed to be unsafe is equivalent to a culture of bad faith in my mind

Though the ideal would be that every chat is a safe-space by default, I think we have to acknowledge that this just is not the case. I personally haven't seen anything bad in the Nix community, but tech in general just can be very hostile[1][2].

In any case, I'd recommend letting the discussion rest for now. If at some point there is a decision made that was somehow discussed in private groups and never brought forward to discuss in public, then that'd be a point of concern in my opinion. Until that, I see no problems at all with private chats.

To expand a bit on your thoughts:

Either way, at some point I'd love for those individuals to just join us in the main chat, they may be surprised to find that myself and others would be more than happy to have them there.

I understand this, and to be honest I think the first impulse actually is to do this. I see the concept of safe space perhaps a bit differently; if we allow and support it, it is also us as a community saying "yes, we acknowledge there are issues in IT, yes we do want you here, no we will not stand in the way of anyone who needs to have private conversations about certain topics".

Absolutely! But in order to avoid that space from becoming an echo chamber which endlessly cycles through the problem without ever arrising at a solution, I personally think that space should eventually become the public rooms.

As said, unless this becomes an issue at the technical or project management level, I'd bury the hatchets and let whatever private spacer there are be.

[1] Random case in point: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/mburmc/free_software_advocates_seek_removal_of_richard/gs0z0oh/
[2] Another case in point, same thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/mburmc/free_software_advocates_seek_removal_of_richard/gs0ph35/

also,

Absolutely! But in order to avoid that space from becoming an echo chamber which endlessly cycles through the problem without ever arrising at a solution, I personally think that space should eventually become the public rooms.

For all you know teutat3s and myself might be running endless circles in the echo chamber that is our private chat, but as long as that doesn't affect devos/nix, then who cares :P

• presumably malicious or at least very careless reframing (agenda / defence driven)
• abandonment of good faith as the default mode of discussion. Not even an effort is perceivable.

I just went through all the discussion(a very interesting situation to wake up to) and I cannot support you on this issue or the RFC in general.

There are many discussions that cannot happen on a public level. Whether it is for a security reason or safe space reason. In the community there are minority groups that want to be able to voice thoughts and vent to people who will support them, note support and echo chamber are not necessarily the same thing.

And in many of your messages I see a lack of empathy for groups facing these problems. For example there was a goal stated that there should be an assumption of safety in public discussions. While that is an admirable goal, it is simply not true, sexism, misogyny, and queerphobia exist and make public spaces feel dangerous and harmful. Just because you haven't "seen it", doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I feel like you might not even know what to look for.

I'm sure all of you have gone through some problem or issue in the past, and did you go out and tell the entire world about it? I assume you talked to a group you felt comfortable with and thats even the goal of support groups and safe spaces.

In no way do these spaces affect transparency, someone complaining about being misgendered or experiencing sexism is not affecting technical decisions of the nix world. If they do then it makes sense to point it out, but I have seen all technical decisions and governing decisions laid out in the open.

I have then seen the point that its ok for these rooms to exist but they shouldn't be official with the nixos.org tag. But if we dropped the nixos.org tag what message does that send? That the nixos organization doesn't support these groups? That the community doesn't care about their safety? Then those places are no longer safe spaces because they aren't discoverable and given community support. There just a room somewhere in the matrix void.

Do you really HAVE to know whats going on in those rooms that have no effect on you? Sure if there are decisions based on those discussions then I see your point, but I have yet to see that happen. These rooms in no way break the goal of good faith, we are creating a safe space with community support with the faith that they will be used wisely(which they have been). You are not being accused of being an enemy or a harmful person, this isn't about us, this is about people who want a space where they are guaranteed safety to voice frustrations and ideas.

I just went through all the discussion(a very interesting situation to wake up to) and I cannot support you on this issue or the RFC in general.

There are many discussions that cannot happen on a public level. Whether it is for a security reason or safe space reason. In the community there are minority groups that want to be able to voice thoughts and vent to people who will support them, note support and echo chamber are not necessarily the same thing.

And in many of your messages I see a lack of empathy for groups facing these problems. For example there was a goal stated that there should be an assumption of safety in public discussions. While that is an admirable goal, it is simply not true, sexism, misogyny, and queerphobia exist and make public spaces feel dangerous and harmful. Just because you haven't "seen it", doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I feel like you might not even know what to look for.

I'm sure all of you have gone through some problem or issue in the past, and did you go out and tell the entire world about it? I assume you talked to a group you felt comfortable with and thats even the goal of support groups and safe spaces.

In no way do these spaces affect transparency, someone complaining about being misgendered or experiencing sexism is not affecting technical decisions of the nix world. If they do then it makes sense to point it out, but I have seen all technical decisions and governing decisions laid out in the open.

I have then seen the point that its ok for these rooms to exist but they shouldn't be official with the nixos.org tag. But if we dropped the nixos.org tag what message does that send? That the nixos organization doesn't support these groups? That the community doesn't care about their safety? Then those places are no longer safe spaces because they aren't discoverable and given community support. They're just a room somewhere in the matrix void.

Do you really HAVE to know whats going on in those rooms that have no effect on you? Sure if there are decisions based on those discussions then I see your point, but I have yet to see that happen. These rooms in no way break the goal of good faith, we are creating a safe space with community support with the faith that they will be used wisely(which they have been). You are not being accused of being an enemy or a harmful person, this isn't about us, this is about people who want a space where they are guaranteed safety to voice frustrations and ideas.