| 31 Mar 2025 |
 emily | and right now I am taking time out of my evening outside because the costs of insufficient communication have been externalized and this needs resolving days before the freeze | 20:58:34 |
 John Ericson | this is why it is crucial to mentally separate 2.2{4,7} from build system / packaging / etc. | 20:58:51 |
 ElvishJerricco | raitobezarius: I would like to know an example I could use to verify whether or not Nix actually has the problem you describe. | 20:58:54 |
| John Ericson | emily: I would just go back to doing your normal evening things then | 20:59:16 |
| emily | In reply to @Ericson2314:matrix.org
this is why it is crucial to mentally separate 2.2{4,7} from build system / packaging / etc. as I said, if the old packaging was restored then there would be a much more viable discussion of whether to bump | 20:59:38 |
| emily | I'm happy to separate those | 20:59:45 |
| John Ericson | let me try to do this bump, and if I screw it up in the next few days you can "haha told you it was harder than you thought!" me all you like :) | 20:59:52 |
| emily | i don't think "don't worry about it, I'm going to do it anyway" is reassuring for the concerns I am trying to raise | 21:00:19 |
| John Ericson | (I am still thinking pre 9th freeze period start) | 21:00:24 |
| John Ericson | that is why I introduced "next few days" | 21:00:39 |
| John Ericson | the honus is on me to get a bunch of stuff working quickly, so we still have vastly more time for unkown-unknowns | 21:01:06 |
| John Ericson | * the onus is on me to get a bunch of stuff working quickly, so we still have vastly more time for unkown-unknowns | 21:01:13 |
| emily | I think you're responding but not listening. I'm trying to tell you why this relationship has become fraught and what we can do to fix it. if you filed off the Nix name and asked any of the people who handle bumps of major packages in Nixpkgs whether now is a good time for a change like this at this point in the release process they'd tell you it's nuts. | 21:01:31 |
| emily | "don't worry, I'll fix it" isn't a helpful response to that. those people put lots of effort into fixing things too | 21:01:51 |
| emily | and the response to some of the things that need fixing like breaking all overrides with no "safe" option for the transition period between Nixpkgs releases and no deprecation warnings has just been wontfix | 21:02:31 |
| ElvishJerricco | John Ericson: While I personally don't object to a Nix bump, I do think you need to realize that you are undermining the release managers by doing something to the release that they don't want. | 21:02:46 |
| John Ericson | how many people are against the version bump separately from the packaging concerns? | 21:03:27 |
| John Ericson | Upstream doesn't have prerogative on downstream packaging style, I know | 21:03:59 |
| emily | I don't think it is a good idea based on past precedent. i would be perfectly happy to bump to the new version with the old packaging immediately after branch off | 21:04:14 |
| John Ericson | my claim of authority there is not "I am a Nix developer" but "there was an RFC about layering" | 21:04:23 |
| emily | if it goes swimmingly, then next time around that's something we can point to | 21:04:39 |
| emily | we listened, talked, worked together, made a show of cooperation by changing the plan in response to concerns, and it went totally fine | 21:05:01 |
| emily | i would be very happy with that outcome | 21:05:09 |
| emily | we could also ship a patching interface that works with both old and new packaging in 25.05 | 21:06:06 |
| emily | to help a transition to that | 21:06:15 |
| emily | just like we do with lib changes | 21:06:21 |
| John Ericson | On the level of really slowing down and listening, I feel like all the upset about the new packaging has been on things that are not actually the split itself | 21:06:47 |
| John Ericson | And just about everything I've done in Nix and otherwise since 2022 and those RFCs, has been about layering the separate and cool down a bunch of issues | 21:07:35 |
| emily | I agree with that. I have no objection to splitting up the packaging by itself | 21:07:46 |
| John Ericson | and, having not been the one doing the Nixpkgs stuff, and just doing the in-tree stuff, I was under the mistaken impresssion that it was fine | 21:08:05 |
