| 7 Jan 2026 |
 leona | adding the license as unfree would also possibly mean that we acknowledge it being unfree, which could in fact cause more problems | 14:19:12 |
 emily | the alternative would be building out infrastructure for Hydra builders to not push things to the cache | 14:19:35 |
| emily | "non-free + allowed in the cache" makes no sense because insofar as it's encumbered it's non-redistributable | 14:19:57 |
 Randy Eckenrode | We would probably have to do things like the Android SDK, which AFAIK requires the user to provide it. | 14:20:12 |
| emily | I am quite confident .tbd files are uncopyrightable in EU + US. header files could have copyright in documentation comments, macro logic, and plausibly sufficiently sophisticated organization, but I suspect that if we were to strip all doc comments out there'd be very little left to potentially take issue with | 14:21:22 |
| emily | plausible there are a handful of random unfiltered things that ought to be stripped too (but that's just the situation with the overall package set) | 14:22:01 |
|  mrene joined the room. | 14:22:03 |
| Randy Eckenrode | We could generate our own stubs. That’s what Darwin did historically. It adds another step. Headers are more problematic. I don’t think there’s enough in the source releases to bootstrap anymore. If there are, there’s no guarantee they are the correct headers or up to date. | 14:22:28 |
| Randy Eckenrode | * | 14:22:50 |
 eveeifyeve | Not to mention homebrew couldm't even distribute the apple sdk. | 14:23:16 |
| eveeifyeve | * Not to mention homebrew couldn't even distribute the apple sdk. | 14:23:22 |
| emily | again we are not redistributing the unmodified SDK | 14:23:34 |
| emily | it is a subset of interface definitions without any proprietary tools | 14:23:54 |
| eveeifyeve | Doesn't matter if it's unmodified tho. | 14:24:00 |
| emily | of course it does | 14:24:13 |
| emily | non-free things can contain things that are freely-licensed, uncopyrightable, or clearly eligible for fair use | 14:24:35 |
| eveeifyeve | * Doesn't matter if it's unmodified tho. I am not a lawyer but it clearly says under 2.6:
Except as otherwise set forth in this Agreement, You agree not to rent, lease, lend, upload to or host on any website or server, sell, redistribute, or sublicense the Apple Software, Apple Certificates, or any Services, in whole or in part, or to enable others to do so. You may not use the Apple Software, Apple Certificates, or any Services provided hereunder for any purpose not expressly permitted by this Agreement, including any applicable Attachments and Schedules. You agree not to install, use or run the Apple SDKs on any non-Apple-branded computer, and not to install, use or run iOS, iPadOS, macOS, tvOS, visionOS, watchOS, and Provisioning Profiles on or in connection with devices other than Apple-branded products, or to enable others to do so. You may not and You agree not to, or to enable others to, copy (except as expressly permitted under this Agreement), decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, attempt to derive the source code of, modify, decrypt, or create derivative works of the Apple Software, Apple Certificates or any Services provided by the Apple Software or otherwise provided hereunder, or any part thereof (except as and only to the extent any foregoing restriction is prohibited by applicable law or to the extent as may be permitted by licensing terms governing use of open-sourced components or sample code included with the Apple Software). You agree not to exploit any Apple Software, Apple Certificates, or Services provided hereunder in any unauthorized way whatsoever, including but not limited to, by trespass or burdening network capacity, or by harvesting or misusing data provided by such Apple Software, Apple Certificates, or Services. Any attempt to do so is a violation of the rights of Apple and its licensors of the Apple Software or Services. If You breach any of the foregoing restrictions, You may be subject to prosecution and damages. All licenses not expressly granted in this Agreement are reserved and no other licenses, immunity or rights, express or implied are granted by Apple, by implication, estoppel, or otherwise. This Agreement does not grant You any rights to use any trademarks, logos or service marks belonging to Apple, including but not limited to the iPhone or iPod word marks. If You make reference to any Apple products or technology or use Apple’s trademarks, You agree to comply with the published guidelines at https://www.apple.com/legal/intellectual-property/guidelinesfor3rdparties.html, as they may be modified by Apple from time to time.
| 14:24:51 |
| emily | excerpting them yields something redistributable and unencumbered | 14:24:51 |
| Randy Eckenrode | e.g., Bash in your macOS reinstall. | 14:25:02 |
| emily | I've read the EULA | 14:25:06 |
| eveeifyeve | * Doesn't matter if it's unmodified tho. I am not a lawyer but it clearly says under 2.6:
Except as otherwise set forth in this Agreement, You agree not to rent, lease, lend, upload to or host on any website or server, sell, redistribute, or sublicense the Apple Software, Apple Certificates, or any Services, in whole or in part, or to enable others to do so. You may not use the Apple Software, Apple Certificates, or any Services provided hereunder for any purpose not expressly permitted by this Agreement, including any applicable Attachments and Schedules. You agree not to install, use or run the Apple SDKs on any non-Apple-branded computer, and not to install, use or run iOS, iPadOS, macOS, tvOS, visionOS, watchOS, and Provisioning Profiles on or in connection with devices other than Apple-branded products, or to enable others to do so. You may not and You agree not to, or to enable others to, copy (except as expressly permitted under this Agreement), decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, attempt to derive the source code of, modify, decrypt, or create derivative works of the Apple Software, Apple Certificates or any Services provided by the Apple Software or otherwise provided hereunder, or any part thereof (except as and only to the extent any foregoing restriction is prohibited by applicable law or to the extent as may be permitted by licensing terms governing use of open-sourced components or sample code included with the Apple Software). You agree not to exploit any Apple Software, Apple Certificates, or Services provided hereunder in any unauthorized way whatsoever, including but not limited to, by trespass or burdening network capacity, or by harvesting or misusing data provided by such Apple Software, Apple Certificates, or Services. Any attempt to do so is a violation of the rights of Apple and its licensors of the Apple Software or Services. If You breach any of the foregoing restrictions, You may be subject to prosecution and damages. All licenses not expressly granted in this Agreement are reserved and no other licenses, immunity or rights, express or implied are granted by Apple, by implication, estoppel, or otherwise. This Agreement does not grant You any rights to use any trademarks, logos or service marks belonging to Apple, including but not limited to the iPhone or iPod word marks. If You make reference to any Apple products or technology or use Apple’s trademarks, You agree to comply with the published guidelines at https://www.apple.com/legal/intellectual-property/guidelinesfor3rdparties.html, as they may be modified by Apple from time to time.
| 14:25:07 |
| Randy Eckenrode | * | 14:25:09 |
| emily | I'm open to argument that there are concerning things in our apple-sdk package from a copyright POV, but you're not really engaging with the argument for why it's not necessarily so | 14:26:04 |
| eveeifyeve | I do get your augment, however me and Randy Eckenrode are a bit skeptical from a copyright POV could get us into trouble from apple. I am not a lawyer so again don't take this advice seriously. | 14:28:40 |
| emily | ok, I will not take it seriously :)
if you want a non-free licence marker on the SDK package I would recommend working on a way for Hydra builders to build packages without pushing them to the central cache - then it may be viable to do so. it would certainly reduce some headaches in stripping things out of the SDK
| 14:31:35 |
| emily | ultimately for a given struct or function there is only one true way to write its prototype with minor stylistic variation | 14:32:02 |
| emily | those definitions are required for interoperability | 14:32:41 |
| eveeifyeve | However this is just in the EU + US this is not international law correct? This could mean they could file a international lawsuit, however I am not a lawyer but I might be sure that is an option. | 14:33:18 |
| emily | there's little room for creativity within the bounds of a fixed system and a strong fair use justification for interoperating with a given fixed system | 14:33:23 |
| emily | the NixOS Foundation is in the EU | 14:33:39 |
