| 4 Nov 2021 |
 @zimbatm:numtide.com | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
it seems more fruitful for me to discuss this among the community, get people aligned on this, understand each other's viewpoints, and build something durable that as many people as possible feel represented by just to be clear; the people in this channel don't represent the community at large. We're basically making a decision for everyone, which is part of the problem. | 16:46:42 |
 @joepie91:pixie.town | I mean, that is what the RFC process is for; to ask for input from the broader community (and I imagine that's why some people objected to creating this room) | 16:47:16 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | we're going a bit back to the notion of contributor or "voting member" | 16:47:58 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | but I don't see the conversation here as 'making decisions', but rather as a way to resolve misunderstandings and disagreements through a higher-bandwidth medium, so that the RFC discussion on github can be returned to with a better shared model of the goals and mechanisms | 16:48:02 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | * we're going a bit back to the notion of contributor or "voting member" (the RFC process itself isn't entirely democratic) | 16:49:00 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | I mean, hopefully the outcome will be also satisfactory to the public at large | 16:51:13 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | I hope so, too. I'm not sure you can do much more than having an open public discussion and preventing trolling or other disruptive tactics | 16:52:28 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | * I mean, hopefully the outcome will be also satisfactory to the public at large (and the minority groups) | 16:52:34 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | not every single community member will care about this topic, after all, or those that do may trust that someone else sorts it out | 16:52:51 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | I would hope that those who do care about getting involved in the conversation, find their way to the RFC or here | 16:53:31 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | jonringer: Jonas Chevalier: also, just to be sure I didn't miss anything, were there any concerns you've raised that I didn't respond to yet? | 16:56:35 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | yeah I'm out of energy for today | 17:00:51 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | ideally the next step would be to incorporate all of this discussion into the RFC somehow, or create a new one | 17:01:38 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | /cc Irenes and ash (it/its) 🏳️⚧️ | 17:02:16 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | or a comment on the github issue anyway | 17:03:06 |
 @jonringer:matrix.org | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
jonringer: Jonas Chevalier: also, just to be sure I didn't miss anything, were there any concerns you've raised that I didn't respond to yet? I'm trying to focus on RFC 114, as this discussion won't have much wait during the RFCSC meetings | 17:07:08 |
| @jonringer:matrix.org | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
jonringer: Jonas Chevalier: also, just to be sure I didn't miss anything, were there any concerns you've raised that I didn't respond to yet? * I'm trying to focus on RFC 114, as this discussion won't have much weight during the RFCSC meetings | 17:07:15 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | jonringer: not sure I understand. in the sense of incorporating the things discussed here into RFC 114, you mean? | 17:08:20 |
| @jonringer:matrix.org | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
jonringer: not sure I understand. in the sense of incorporating the things discussed here into RFC 114, you mean? RFC 114 is only meant to provide a framework for acceptable behavior. It does not take into consideration any type of moderation action. And the discussion recently has been about moderation actions | 17:10:09 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | right. I'm still in doubt whether it is a good idea to split things out like that, for a few reasons:
- since the moderation aspect seems to be a lot more controversial than the social norms aspect, we could end up in a situation where we technically have a CoC, but in practice it is not enforced because there is no sustainable moderation structure for actually doing so and the moderation structure RFC is stuck in bikeshed land - which would over time erode trust in the CoC itself since it doesn't do anything, and create an outward impression that as a community we just have the CoC to 'appear progressive' rather than to actually ensure a welcoming and inclusive community
- a major goal of RFC98 is to establish a non-hierarchical moderation structure, which itself overlaps/intersects with social norms; the social norms will need to be a major defining factor in how the processes are defined to work, since in a non-hierarchical moderation structure, trust is placed in (fairly immutable) processes and norms rather than individuals in a hierarchy. trying to establish social norms in isolation from the mechanisms to enforce them, could lead to a situation where the norms in the CoC are not in line with the norms encoded in the moderation structure, eg. because the moderation structure heavily relies on mutual empathy and deescalation but the social norms in the CoC do not specify this
| 17:15:42 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | or, in less words: I think the social norms are too intertwined with the proposed moderation mechanism to separate them out | 17:16:35 |
| @jonringer:matrix.org | I view RFCs like I view PRs. Large PRs are harder to merge because the scope is so much larger, and there is more to nit pick | 17:16:51 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | sure - but as I've mentioned before, community management doesn't really modularize like code does, unfortunately | 17:17:17 |
| @jonringer:matrix.org | Having more focused discussion allows for the dialogue to progress more. | 17:17:25 |
| @jonringer:matrix.org | I think it can be compartmentalized to some degrees. What laws there should be, and how those laws are enforced is one logical division | 17:18:00 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | I think it would be a superficial form of 'progress'; one that certainly reduces conflict in the short term, but whose outcome would be significantly worse than a whole-system analysis would produce, leaving too many conflicting/unspecified things that will produce conflict in the future | 17:18:25 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | and I'm generally in favour of eating the upfront cost rather than multiplying it many times and smearing it out over the longer term, in situations like these | 17:19:00 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | In reply to @jonringer:matrix.org
I think it can be compartmentalized to some degrees. What laws there should be, and how those laws are enforced is one logical division "laws" are a legalistic system, though - which isn't (or at least shouldn't be) what we're building here. even nation states can barely make it work | 17:19:26 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | legalistic systems are much easier to compartmentalize precisely because they do not address a system as a whole | 17:19:43 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | and that is an unfortunate necessity at nation scale, but the results aren't great | 17:19:58 |
