| 4 Nov 2021 |
 @zimbatm:numtide.com | For example one thing I noticed is that there is a lot of the current American culture war that is infecting the conversation. IMO both sides are pretty toxic. | 14:23:14 |
 @joepie91:pixie.town | I mean, I can go on here about the paradox of tolerance, and how there's a difference between identity and chosen ideology, and societal circumstances affecting how much certain groups of people can healthily deal with mentally, and how excluding some people from a community is inevitable in 100% of cases and it's about having a frank conversation on who you exclude and why, and I could continue elaborating on that and the reasons behind it for many hours, if people want... but the very short summary is "all discomfort is not equal, and we should aim to make the community as welcoming as generally possible, and that is necessarily going to include some well-chosen forms of discomfort" | 14:23:41 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | piegames: I agree that injecting terms as "woke" is not helpful to the conversation | 14:23:52 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | As soon as we are divided into camps, we stop seeing each-other as humans | 14:24:45 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | the "well-chosen" is the important part here, and it's why RFC98 is important, and why this discussion is important, and why we can't just let things go however they go like we have in the past, as a community | 14:24:45 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | because "not choosing a group to exclude" is not an available option, there's only "explicitly making a choice vs. letting it be dictated by social dominance" | 14:25:25 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | I really disagree with this line of thinking | 14:25:56 |
 tomberek | What group you want to exclude? | 14:26:07 |
| tomberek | Or that we should? | 14:26:43 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | tomberek: those who are unwilling to be empathic, baseline inclusive, and accepting of other people's experiences | 14:26:46 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | paradox of intolerance shouldn't be used as a leg-up to create more intolerance | 14:26:59 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | (with "those who are unable to be empathic" being a special case that requires case-by-case consideration) | 14:27:14 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | exclusion is an unfortunate thing and should be exceptional | 14:27:22 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | Jonas Chevalier: I completely agree with that | 14:27:35 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | however, I do also recognize that not all exclusion is implicit, and that it is very easy to end up with a lot of implicit exclusion - the path towards "least exclusion" is not "define no social norms" | 14:28:22 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | * however, I do also recognize that not all exclusion is explicit, and that it is very easy to end up with a lot of implicit exclusion - the path towards "least exclusion" is not "define no social norms" | 14:28:28 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | please tell me something you are unsure about | 14:28:39 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | what are open questions you have? | 14:28:52 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | how do you mean? | 14:29:01 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | I want to start this again, but from a place where we're open that we don't have all the answers | 14:29:58 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | I certainly don't have all the answers | 14:30:33 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | neither do I; I already mentioned one such case actually, people who cannot be empathic (eg. because of some sort of mental health condition) | 14:30:59 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | that is a complicated thing where there is no clear good answer, because on the one hand you cannot allow one person to disrupt an entire community, but on the other hand it is likely a chronic condition and so on a societal scale they would get excluded from everywhere | 14:31:41 |
| tomberek | Disrupt the community? | 14:32:15 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | * that is a complicated thing where there is no clear good answer, because on the one hand you cannot allow one person to disrupt an entire community, but on the other hand it is likely a chronic condition and so on a societal scale they would get excluded from everywhere, which is also undesirable | 14:32:43 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | generally speaking, my impression is that we can get quite far by acknowledging that we have differences. | 14:33:22 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | and by talking to people | 14:34:52 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | Jonas Chevalier: I agree with that in general, but with the caveat that this only applies when everybody involved is acting in good faith | 14:35:15 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | which is usually the case, but it often only takes one person who isn't acting in good faith to make things go bad very quickly | 14:35:33 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | even the people above that were labelled toxic, are just people. behind the words are legitimate fears | 14:35:49 |
