| 3 Nov 2021 |
|  piegames joined the room. | 21:06:17 |
| piegames set a profile picture. | 22:01:29 |
|  gal_bolle joined the room. | 23:14:42 |
| 4 Nov 2021 |
|  Ellie joined the room. | 00:34:20 |
|  Jan Tojnar joined the room. | 00:37:32 |
|  joepie91 🏳️🌈 joined the room. | 00:51:34 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | I will have to dig through the full history here at some later time, but some immediate comments based on a skim of it:
- yes, everything is political. if you believe it's not, then that just means that you are personally in a position where you can afford to ignore the politics of a community, and that is not representative for other people's experiences.
- ignores are not and never will be a structural solution for abusive behaviour within a community. it creates missing stairs and just means that you are expecting everybody in a community to work around someone who is consistently misbehaving, ie. you are asking everybody else to do free emotional labour to compensate for one individual failing to be empathic towards others
- "explicit hard-and-fast rules" are not a desirable thing to have, as they fail both ways; they will fail to cover undesirable behaviours, while also 'overcatching' unproblematic behaviour that Technically breaks a rule. in practice, the only people benefiting from 'explicit hard-and-fast rules' are people who like to rulelawyer and essentially exploit said rules to their benefit, using them as cover for being abusive in a Technically Allowed way. the unfortunate reality is that all forms of community management always are and always will be subjective to some degree, because humans and social dynamics are complicated, to the point that even literal nation states have failed to succeed at defining all acceptable behaviours upfront.
none of this is really new information, all of this has already been brought up in the github thread, but for some reason some people still seem under the impression that the 'popular wisdom' of 'objective' tech community moderation is accurate, when it's extremely not
| 00:58:40 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | (and basically every single tech community that's "objectively" moderated ends up being an absolute hellhole for anyone who isn't a white cishet guy) | 00:59:46 |
| * joepie91 🏳️🌈 is rapidly growing tired of the same non-arguments being brought up over and over again | 01:00:47 |
 jonringer |
yes, everything is political
How is a version bump to a package political?
| 01:11:17 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | that does not look like a good-faith question to me | 01:11:40 |
 moritz.hedtke | In reply to @jonringer:matrix.org
yes, everything is political
How is a version bump to a package political?
Maybe the version is not stable | 01:12:05 |
| moritz.hedtke | (in the opinion of some) | 01:12:17 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | you are deliberately taking the most extreme example that you can think of, seemingly without making any effort to understand the point being made there, trying to find a 'gotcha' | 01:12:41 |
| jonringer | I really like contributing to nixpkgs, but I'm sure how all of my contributions in submitting and reviewing PRs is a political act. | 01:12:42 |
| jonringer | because it's the most common action I perform. And takes up probably a majority of my time when I decide to dedicate time to nixpkgs | 01:13:27 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | this discussion is about the community, not about you personally. | 01:13:59 |
| jonringer | Am I not part of the community? | 01:14:29 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | if your only horse in this race is "how does this make life easier or harder for me personally" and you are unwilling to consider what is being said or meant beyond that, I question whether you should be involved in the process here | 01:14:32 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | sure, emphasis on 'part of' | 01:14:38 |
| jonringer | My life is easier when there's more contributors. Maintaining the scope of nixpkgs is not meant to be done by one person. | 01:15:16 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | you're not engaging with my point. | 01:15:41 |
| jonringer | My goal is the success of nix, and that will be achieved by increasing the contributor base. | 01:15:43 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | (nor trying to understand it) | 01:16:27 |
| Jan Tojnar | ¿the community is more than just pull requests? | 01:17:55 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | look, the reason that I did a skim and not a full read is because I am about to go to bed. and I'd be happy to provide some quick clarification if something is unclear, but if this is going to be a series of 'not engaging with what I'm saying but posting one's own opinions instead' and 'talking about personal interests and not community interests', then I'm checking out for tonight | 01:18:07 |
| moritz.hedtke | On that note is there a definition for "political" in the sense used here that is clearer in an international community? | 01:18:15 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | because I do not see that going anywhere productive | 01:18:20 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | so if you have a genuine request for clarification on something I've said, this is the time to ask it | 01:18:34 |
| jonringer | In reply to @jtojnar:matrix.org
¿the community is more than just pull requests? Yes, I realize this. | 01:19:39 |
