| 21 Jul 2022 |
 John Ericson | and try to standardize that between guix and us | 14:14:36 |
 infinisil | Not sure if I get the main problem here. Is it something like eval time vs build time computation? | 14:14:36 |
 Alyssa Ross | Noble cause, but is it relevant to stdenv? | 14:14:43 |
| Alyssa Ross | or setup hooks vs builders? | 14:15:10 |
| John Ericson | if we have more experimentaiton but interopt at the higher level, we can have "farm teams" trying out ideas and Nixpkgs can pick the best ones | 14:15:17 |
| infinisil | And setup hooks are currently build time, but because of that it doesn't allow eval time inspection? And how does that relate to wrapping? Can't there be eval or build time wrapping? | 14:15:31 |
| John Ericson | * if we have more experimentaiton but interopt at the higher level, we can have "farm teams" trying out ideas and Nixpkgs can pick the best ones. That's how they connect. | 14:16:15 |
 j-k | In reply to @Ericson2314:matrix.org
and try to standardize that between guix and us makes me think of the modularity discussed in tvix but IDK if there has been much progress there
https://tvl.fyi/blog/rewriting-nix
| 14:17:07 |
| John Ericson | they are still doing things I understand, but yes this should be driven by the foundation | 14:18:46 |
| John Ericson | it is some technological work but also more importantly believing that multiple approaches is good, vs everyone must use exprs or flakes or whatever | 14:19:21 |
| John Ericson | I do think nickle or hnix or something will give us types | 14:20:02 |
| John Ericson | not C++ nix | 14:20:09 |
| John Ericson | and then we'll really be able to refactor nixpkgs | 14:20:17 |
| infinisil | I think this is approaching off-topic territory :) | 14:21:07 |
| j-k | I think there are still some easier wins within our grasp for improving nixpkgs itself but I do generally agree with the changes you want for nix itself | 14:21:27 |
| infinisil | John Ericson: What do you think of having a call to just pick your brains on how the current stdenv needs to be redesigned and how to go about that? | 14:22:46 |
| John Ericson | Sure | 14:23:05 |
| infinisil | Because I think you know a lot of things, but not many other people do | 14:23:12 |
| infinisil | It might be good to start with the premise of "We have Nix but no nixpkgs, how to compile a C program on various platforms?" | 14:23:42 |
| John Ericson | In reply to @j-k:matrix.org
I think there are still some easier wins within our grasp for improving nixpkgs itself but I do generally agree with the changes you want for nix itself Yes I do agree, just whenever we reach some sort of sticking point like "are setup hooks good?" I immediately find myself distracted :) and longing for the better future | 14:24:08 |
| John Ericson | In reply to @j-k:matrix.org
I think there are still some easier wins within our grasp for improving nixpkgs itself but I do generally agree with the changes you want for nix itself * Yes I do agree, just whenever we reach some sort of sticking point like "are setup hooks good?" I immediately find myself distracted (I'll admit it! :)) and longing for the better future | 14:24:23 |
| infinisil | In reply to @infinisil:matrix.org
It might be good to start with the premise of "We have Nix but no nixpkgs, how to compile a C program on various platforms?" John Ericson: Is there maybe already some document that explains stdenv from the ground up or is your brain the main source for it right now? | 14:25:36 |
 Robert Hensing (roberth) | In reply to @yorik.sar:matrix.org
I think we should optimise the evaluation process, not try to avoid it... Not to pick out a single comment, but we're discussing rather many suggestions to prioritize even larger projects. Ambition is nice, but this is also how we get stuck in ivory towers. | 14:25:53 |
| John Ericson | infinisil: probably not yet | 14:26:46 |
| John Ericson | but happy to get more stuff written | 14:26:54 |
| infinisil | Yeah let's try to keep the discussions here limited to "What can we do with the current Nix" | 14:26:58 |
| j-k | It was mentioned before about bootstrapping and hopefully using stage0 and kaem etc like guix team will/already(?) do. I'm happy to help in that effort & I think this intro to stdenv would help me understand what already exists and what needs swapping out.
I am also very interested in the avoiding-stageN-nonsense stuff | 14:27:28 |
| Alyssa Ross | Does that mean not the all-packages.nix restructuring from the other day, where a new builtin was being designed? | 14:27:31 |
| infinisil | John Ericson: Sounds good to have a call then, I'd love to dig and experiment with this myself, maybe also write some stuff | 14:27:31 |
| infinisil | Alyssa Ross: Hehe yes | 14:27:51 |
