| 13 Jul 2022 |
 infinisil | In reply to @kevincox:matrix.org
At this point how is this different from regular package arguments that can be overridden? Sounds like you can have python.override { version = "2.7" } if we wanted to. The idea would be to make it super easy to make multiple versions work. Something package authors won't have to think about unless they need it. With .override it would be a very manual process | 12:47:23 |
| infinisil | This goes into the direction of fundamentally defining what a "package" really is. With this idea it would be something along the lines of "A derivation with a name and a version", where the version expresses notions of variants, backwards compatibility, is constrainable, etc. | 12:49:47 |
| infinisil | While this is a different problem to solve, we need to make sure we aren't solving one problem and then realizing it prevents us from solving another problem | 12:53:29 |
| infinisil | With nixpkgs, so many things tie into each other it feels like | 12:53:57 |
 j-k | In reply to @profpatsch:augsburg.one
I feel like many people here are rediscovering that an attrset and a function are synonymous things :P nix-repl> {}
{ }
nix-repl> {} // { hello = "world"; }
{ hello = "world"; }
nix-repl> (a: b: a + b)
«lambda @ (string):1:2»
nix-repl> (a: b: a + b) // { hello = "world"; }
error: value is a function while a set was expected
well they're a bit different
| 13:20:53 |
 Wanja Hentze | they're different types on the surface, but in Nix in particular they're also fundamentally different, I think | 13:24:58 |
| Wanja Hentze | AFAICT, because attr names are evaluated eagerly, you can only have finitely many of them in a set | 13:25:27 |
| Wanja Hentze | so you can not build an attrset that is equivalent to a: a + "world" or something | 13:26:08 |
| j-k | I hope in the meeting later today we can note down a bunch of these ideas/suggestions without bike-shedding (...too much) on the call, set aside some time to test out and benchmark some of them, and ideally get a mostly prioritized list of what is most pressing or has big benefits etc.
It can also be good for a new team to get a couple smaller wins out of the way to get the ball rolling
although the first one might be more foundational groundwork for the team rather than collecting some of these ideas so it might have to be for a future meeting | 13:39:07 |
| infinisil | Yeah the agenda of the first meeting will be going over team organization and onboarding new members. If there's time we can also start going into more technical discussions already though | 13:42:03 |
 Sandro | In reply to @kevincox:matrix.org
Also for overrides I think we can probably handle this basically the same we do today in all-packages.nix for now. We can think about changing those as a different project. For now it could look something like:
# foo.nix
{pkgs}: pkgs.callPackage foo/impl.nix { python = pkgs.python27 }
That isn't the prettiest but allows us to do overrides and maintains the current API. Then I think we can probably clean it up as a separate effort if we wanted too. Unless I am also missing a way that merging both projects returns a better result here. That is a really bad example because python 2 to 3 had many breaking changes in python itself and in many libraries. | 13:54:30 |
 kevincox | In reply to @sandro:supersandro.de
That is a really bad example because python 2 to 3 had many breaking changes in python itself and in many libraries. I don't follow how the breaking changes is bad in my example? You mean it would be better to be an example like libfoo = libfoo.override { withX = false} or something? | 13:56:34 |
| Sandro | I would recommend something that would actually work out of the box right now, just with more code. Idk. Replace python 3.10 with 3.9 or only change a minor version or something like that | 13:58:26 |
| Sandro | Or compile a go program with an older go version | 13:58:57 |
| Sandro | Because that wouldn't require much extra work and leaves less room for side discussions. Bringing python 2 brings a lot of side discussions on the board and the python does not want to maintain an extra package set for python 2 which is only possible with old versions of most things. | 14:00:30 |
| infinisil | Sandro: I think that was only an example. More generically the question is "If all-packages.nix goes away, what to do with all these argument overrides in all-packages.nix" | 14:03:29 |
| Sandro | Yeah I know, I would suggest to use uncontroversial examples without python 2.7 | 14:52:19 |
| infinisil | @room First meeting in 5 minutes at https://meet.jit.si/nixpkgs-architecture, anybody is free to join, meeting agenda and notes in https://pad.lassul.us/uIi7xeSJTW6LJUEHulZgVQ :) | 14:55:10 |
 mkaito | be there in 5, just brewing some coffee | 14:55:45 |
 Rick (Mindavi) | Might lurk for a bit :) | 14:59:28 |
 yorik.sar | infinisil: Good job driving this meeting! | 16:03:36 |
| infinisil | Thanks for joining everybody! I think this is starting out great, thanks for all the feedback :D | 16:03:40 |
 Alyssa Ross | yeah thanks infinisil :) | 16:04:00 |
| infinisil | Meeting notes uploaded here: https://github.com/nixpkgs-architecture/meetings/blob/master/2022-07-13.md, and the recording is here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4sbfxcjzlnb85qc/nixpkgs-architecture%20on%202022-07-13%2016-02.mp4?dl=0 (for now, later to be uploaded to youtube) | 16:05:43 |
| yorik.sar | By the way, I think that threads in Matrix, even if the were not in beta, share pretty much all downsides of plain Matrix, adding very little benefit. They are still hard to follow (just like the channel itself), even if focused on one topic. | 16:06:46 |
| yorik.sar | I think that messengers that focus more on topics like Zulip or Twist (or Matrix from the future?) should be better at this. But for now we should probably use different tools. | 16:08:50 |
| Alyssa Ross | terrible idea: Discourse <-> Matrix threads bridge :P | 16:09:19 |
| yorik.sar | https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-chat-integration/66522 - it seems to support threaded replies for Slack... | 16:11:11 |
| mkaito | How about no 😛 | 16:39:19 |
| infinisil | I like the article ash (it/its) 🏳️⚧️ mentioned: http://new-compass.net/articles/against-consensus-dissensus . It's main thoughts are that basing decisions on strict consensus is problematic | 16:55:06 |
