Nixpkgs Architecture Team - Public Room Timeline

	Nixpkgs Architecture Team	231 Members
	https://github.com/nixpkgs-architecture, weekly public meetings on Wednesday 15:00-16:00 UTC at https://meet.jit.si/nixpkgs-architecture	53 Servers

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Sender	Message	Time
6 Feb 2023
figsoda	In reply to @gytis-ivaskevicius:matrix.org Hey guys, not sure what you guys are up to these days but I'd appreciate if you guys could follow up on this `blueprints` idea, maybe making it a standard in nix ecosystem https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/208020#issuecomment-1419168718 The blueprints still looks very nixpkgs-esque to me I believe that we should not encourage people to depend on nixpkgs and this should be resolved in nix itself. I can see a `callPackage` like pattern being lifted to the `nix` level (maybe in a separate repository `core`, kind of like nixpkgs.lib), but things like `stdenv` are strictly nixpkgs, it breaking change in nixpkgs will cause this flake to break, and I'm not seeing anything that refers to nixpkgs in the flake outputs. about the issue, I like the `perSystem` pattern that flake-parts uses, maybe this can be supported in a more official way (something in nixpkgs like `nixosSystem`, or even ootb flakes support)	14:56:25
figsoda	In reply to @gytis-ivaskevicius:matrix.org Hey guys, not sure what you guys are up to these days but I'd appreciate if you guys could follow up on this `blueprints` idea, maybe making it a standard in nix ecosystem https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/208020#issuecomment-1419168718 * The blueprints still looks very nixpkgs-esque to me I believe that we should not encourage people to depend on nixpkgs and this should be resolved in nix itself. I can see a `callPackage` like pattern being lifted to the `nix` level (maybe in a separate repository `core`, kind of like nixpkgs.lib), but things like `stdenv` are strictly nixpkgs, it having a breaking change in nixpkgs will cause this flake to break, and I'm not seeing anything that refers to nixpkgs in the flake outputs. about the issue, I like the `perSystem` pattern that flake-parts uses, maybe this can be supported in a more official way (something in nixpkgs like `nixosSystem`, or even ootb flakes support)	14:59:45
figsoda	* The blueprints still looks very nixpkgs-esque to me I believe that we should not encourage people to depend on nixpkgs and this should be resolved in nix itself. I can see a `callPackage` like pattern being lifted to the `nix` level (maybe in a separate repository `core`, kind of like nixpkgs.lib), but things like `stdenv` are strictly nixpkgs, it having a breaking change in nixpkgs will cause this flake to break, and I'm not seeing anything that refers to nixpkgs in the flake outputs. about the issue, I like the `perSystem` pattern that flake-parts uses, maybe this can be supported in a more official way (something in nixpkgs like `nixosSystem`, or even ootb support in nix)	15:02:43
infinisil	@room: The next meeting will take place in ~10 minutes, we'll be there to discuss RFC 140 - meeting link - live stream - meeting notes	15:21:39
Gytis Ivaskevicius	I can see a callPackage like pattern being lifted to the nix level (maybe in a separate repository core, kind of like nixpkgs.lib), but things like stdenv are strictly nixpkgs, it having a breaking change in nixpkgs will cause this flake to break, and I'm not seeing anything that refers to nixpkgs in the flake outputs. No, I think this should stay part of nixpkgs. Just that users have a fool proof option to make package depend on whichever nixpkgs revision they feel like about the issue, I like the perSystem pattern that flake-parts uses, maybe this can be supported in a more official way (something in nixpkgs like nixosSystem, or even ootb support in nix) `perSystem` is not part of the idea, it's being addressed as a separate issue. Quite possibly differently	15:23:02
nbp	In reply to @figsoda:matrix.org The blueprints still looks very nixpkgs-esque to me I believe that we should not encourage people to depend on nixpkgs and this should be resolved in nix itself. I can see a `callPackage` like pattern being lifted to the `nix` level (maybe in a separate repository `core`, kind of like nixpkgs.lib), but things like `stdenv` are strictly nixpkgs, it having a breaking change in nixpkgs will cause this flake to break, and I'm not seeing anything that refers to nixpkgs in the flake outputs. about the issue, I like the `perSystem` pattern that flake-parts uses, maybe this can be supported in a more official way (something in nixpkgs like `nixosSystem`, or even ootb support in nix) Let's hope not, as my plan was to get rid of its crappy logic to make it trivially extensible.	15:25:10
infinisil	In reply to @gytis-ivaskevicius:matrix.org Hey guys, not sure what you guys are up to these days but I'd appreciate if you guys could follow up on this `blueprints` idea, maybe making it a standard in nix ecosystem https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/208020#issuecomment-1419168718 We're currently focusing on RFC 140 as the first major change, but after that's done and implemented we'll have to find the next thing to work on, which might be something from the future work section, from the other NAT issues or something else	15:26:09
infinisil	There was also a discussion yesterday about parallelising the work more	15:26:34
infinisil	I think it all hinges on making that first RFC a success though	15:27:56
growpotkin ( Alex Ameen )	A fool proof way to depend on a particular version is a pinned form of Nixpkgs in a flake. You can pin an arbitrary number and create an overlay to cherry pick.	15:30:15
growpotkin ( Alex Ameen )	Override is your friend also	15:31:01
infinisil	Ehh, overlays and overrides have serious composability problems, I really think we need something better to replace them	15:31:22
infinisil	John Ericson Robert Hensing (roberth) tomberek: Joining?	15:32:26
@blaggacao:matrix.org	Gytis Ivaskevicius: from a 30s look the blueprints idea is almost 100% overlap with RFC140. Correct me if I'm wrong.	16:19:12
@blaggacao:matrix.org	Download pkg-evolution.png	16:21:03
@blaggacao:matrix.org	It would be `pkg-fun`, I guess.	16:21:16
Gytis Ivaskevicius	In reply to @growpotkin1:matrix.org A fool proof way to depend on a particular version is a pinned form of Nixpkgs in a flake. You can pin an arbitrary number and create an overlay to cherry pick. My option gives you a possibility of doing that	16:24:41
@blaggacao:matrix.org	Beyond features, though, the name of the game is the process to obtain convergence and wide-spread adoption.	16:27:23
@blaggacao:matrix.org	* Beyond features, though, the name of the game is the process to obtain convergence and wide-spread adoption.	16:27:40
@blaggacao:matrix.org	In reply to @infinisil:matrix.org I think it all hinges on making that first RFC a success though Or ^^ this, in other words.	16:29:11
tomberek	In reply to @gytis-ivaskevicius:matrix.org Hey guys, not sure what you guys are up to these days but I'd appreciate if you guys could follow up on this `blueprints` idea, maybe making it a standard in nix ecosystem https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/208020#issuecomment-1419168718 Yes.... the blueprints concept is something I'd like to examine and shepherd.	18:00:05
Winter (she/her)	In reply to @blaggacao:matrix.org It just got harder and became an evangelization issue after playing a little with it. But that's borderline off topic, here, anyways. Can I ask what this issue is even saying? I'd consider myself very experienced in Nix and yet I am very, very confused.	18:28:59
Winter (she/her)	If I'm this confused, I'd say the upstream maintainers are absolutely clueless as to what you're saying -- I don't even see a call to action or anything.	18:31:07
infinisil	I think it's David Arnold (blaggacao) trying to make a point for adding a Nix build, maybe it should be linked to https://github.com/frappe/bench/pull/1429	18:31:10
@blaggacao:matrix.org	There are so many different ways to approach Nix. It's always a gamble. This istance asumes maintainers are familiar with `PATH` and `sys.addsitedirs()` and tries yo explain what it does for them in a two-script capsule what they currently have been trying to achieve with multiple ansible playbooks.	18:45:33
@blaggacao:matrix.org	* There are _so_ many different ways to approach Nix. It's always a gamble. This istance assumes maintainers are familiar with `PATH` and `sys.addsitedirs()` and tries yo explain what it does for them in a two-script capsule what they currently have been trying to achieve with multiple ansible playbooks.	18:45:48
@blaggacao:matrix.org	* There are _so_ many different ways to approach Nix. It's always a gamble. This istance assumes maintainers are familiar with `PATH` and `sys.addsitedirs()` and tries to explain what it does for them in a two-script capsule. As soon as they refuse to get distracted by wired path names, they will recognize the packages and libraries that they currently are procuring via ansible playbooks in a very heavy handed approach that makes up 20% of the `bench` codebase.	18:47:24
@piegames:matrix.org	There are so many different ways to approach Nix. It's always a gamble. If your way of approaching Nix results multiple people already deeply familiar with Nix saying that they don't understand your text (add me to that list, I read the code blocks twice and they still look like some arcane spell to me), then I guarantee you'll lose that gamble for everybody else too.	21:49:01
@piegames:matrix.org	evangelization issue As soon as they refuse to get distracted by wired path names, they will recognize the packages and libraries that they currently are procuring via ansible playbooks in a very heavy handed approach that makes up 20% of the bench codebase. I can't really put it into words, but I find those sentences deeply unsettling. It gives me the vibes of some pretentious 16th century missionary trying to convert those primitive people or something. (I apologize for the metaphor, but it currently best describes how I feel about this.) I know there are running jokes about Nix being a cult/sect/religion and about "converting" people to Nix, yet I've never felt it being hostile until now	21:49:04
@blaggacao:matrix.org	Once language and stance becomes a distraction itself, it's a sign for me to go fish. Thank you.	22:05:32

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