| 21 Aug 2021 |
 dash | secrets management is a job for experts anyway, end users cannot be expected to do it | 03:19:08 |
 matthewcroughan - nix.zone | Meh, I hate it when conversations get like this :P | 03:19:23 |
| dash | matthewcroughan - nix.zone: sure | 03:19:39 |
| matthewcroughan - nix.zone | When conversations devolve into "UX" or "End Users", etc. I just feel dejected. | 03:19:43 |
| matthewcroughan - nix.zone | It's like, yeah. But I hate viewing the world through that lens. | 03:19:54 |
| matthewcroughan - nix.zone | The lens of "Users are dumb and shouldn't be managing their own privacy" | 03:20:16 |
| matthewcroughan - nix.zone | Just makes you recall that the whole architecture is incorrect. | 03:20:32 |
| matthewcroughan - nix.zone | * Just makes you recall that the whole architecture is incorrect if that is the case. | 03:20:36 |
| dash | matthewcroughan - nix.zone: more like "users rationally don't care about computer minutiae that isn't their job" | 03:20:40 |
 6aa4fd | In reply to @washort:greyface.org
secrets management is a job for experts anyway, end users cannot be expected to do it that is basically superfluous, all you are saying is that it isn't our place to worry about. even philosophically free software is built on eroding the user-developer distinction | 03:20:45 |
| dash | 6aa4fd: I don't care | 03:21:00 |
| matthewcroughan - nix.zone | Well if you don't care, then you don't care. I can't do much about that :P | 03:21:24 |
| 6aa4fd | okay well normally when i write something online im thinking about how other people benefit from it, maybe thats just me | 03:21:28 |
| dash | 6aa4fd: me too | 03:21:34 |
| dash | but "free software" isn't an interesting topic of discussion | 03:21:49 |
| matthewcroughan - nix.zone |
Even philosophically free software is built on eroding the user-developer distinction
That's a great way of looking at it, not actually read that before.
| 03:21:56 |
| matthewcroughan - nix.zone | Users and developers shouldn't be distinct. | 03:22:11 |
| dash | why's that a great way of looking at it | 03:22:10 |
| dash | most people don't want to be software developers even if they could | 03:22:22 |
| matthewcroughan - nix.zone | They should be distinct in terms of what can be done, but the developers shouldn't have power over the users. | 03:22:31 |
| dash | most people use computers because their job requires it or communicating with their friends or buying things requires it | 03:22:53 |
| matthewcroughan - nix.zone | Obviously the developer has skills that the user doesn't have. But that shouldn't give them overwhelming power. If that is the case, the developer hasn't made a good abstraction for the user to use. | 03:22:58 |
| dash | matthewcroughan - nix.zone: that is silly. | 03:23:00 |
| 6aa4fd | In reply to @matthewcroughan:defenestrate.it
Even philosophically free software is built on eroding the user-developer distinction
That's a great way of looking at it, not actually read that before.
i didnt steal the quote from anywhere, its just how it works. people learn to fix their own problems, how other people might have the same ones, how to help them out. a default presumption of closed source, private, unfree, software is that users can't have, don't deserve, etc, that agency over their own possessions. sure they might not make ideal use of it a lot of the time, but it starts with good will towards the recipient of the software | 03:23:26 |
| matthewcroughan - nix.zone | UNIX itself is based on giving users absolute power to control their system. | 03:24:03 |
| dash | matthewcroughan - nix.zone: haha. | 03:24:10 |
| matthewcroughan - nix.zone | Every program written in C as a utility is an example of the developer giving absolute power to you, the user. | 03:24:28 |
| matthewcroughan - nix.zone | The developer of awk has no power over you. He doesn't know more than you about awk. | 03:24:45 |
| matthewcroughan - nix.zone | Brian Kernighan is surprised by people's usage of awk. Because he has made a tool to be used. | 03:25:03 |
| 6aa4fd | and for that matter, empowerment of users and developers is not really in contradiction, more aggressive DAC projects dont take agency away from the user or administrator, they just also build in more substantial "sensible" default profiles so the admins can wrangle with the higher complexity of the design | 03:25:03 |
