| 13 Aug 2021 |
 jonringer | Everything else is a composition of packages (or nix store objects, if you want to use the "nix" term) | 00:48:20 |
 evils | In reply to @jonringer:matrix.org
Everything else is a composition of packages (or nix store objects, if you want to use the "nix" term) i feel like nixers get that that's a fundamental difference that enables many killer features
but that statement doesn't "enlighten" anyone on its own (i suspect) | 00:51:00 |
 tomberek | That GNURadio project I had was a good venue for me to describe in my audience's vocabulary the wonderful outcomes of using Nix/NixOS/Hydra. Try to capture what would "wow" them, and emphasize that. | 00:51:26 |
| jonringer | Yea, but it explains how you could build a single package, or a whole OS, or a installation cd, or a VM image | 00:52:00 |
| tomberek | Hackerspace? You can set up a system in the hackerspace to do builds, deploy to hardware sitting in their lab, and they can watch the results via remote webcam..... "you can stay home and still have confidence it works on the hardware you can't bring home with you." | 00:53:44 |
| evils | In reply to @jonringer:matrix.org
Yea, but it explains how you could build a single package, or a whole OS, or a installation cd, or a VM image with the same tools, as custom as you want them | 00:54:09 |
| tomberek | or "complicated toolchain for <insert-embedded-thing-here>? no prob, 'nix-shell' is all you need!" | 00:54:25 |
| tomberek | * or "complicated cross-compiling toolchain for <insert-embedded-thing-here>? no prob, 'nix-shell' is all you need!" | 00:54:45 |
| evils | In reply to @tomberek:matrix.org
or "complicated cross-compiling toolchain for <insert-embedded-thing-here>? no prob, 'nix-shell' is all you need!" i think the counter-argument i've heard for that is "just use docker"
and it's hard to argue against a tool that works and many people already know | 00:56:25 |
| tomberek | or (a bit more salesman-like): "tired of being able to get something to work, but no one can reproduce your results? Or they can't reproduce your bug reports? Do I have a proposal for you!" | 00:56:37 |
| tomberek | well, for hardware people are a bit easier because they usually don't want Docker between them and their hardware. "it's native!" | 00:57:26 |
| tomberek | Yeah, "just use Docker" is really good on day 1, but horrible on day 101. But that is a more subtle point that I don't know how to make effectively. | 00:58:28 |
| evils | In reply to @jonringer:matrix.org
Yea, but it explains how you could build a single package, or a whole OS, or a installation cd, or a VM image besides just providing you with packages, it allows you to compose systems with those packages, as complex as a full desktop OS | 01:01:25 |
| evils | In reply to @evils:nixos.dev
besides just providing you with packages, it allows you to compose systems with those packages, as complex as a full desktop OS this kinda makes the division between nix and NixOS disappear entirely though | 01:02:40 |
| tomberek | i normally transition to NixOS with something like "and so you may be wondering if this whole scheme works? Does it scale? Is it manageable? Well, they built a Linux distribution around it. And operate entire fleets of machines with it." | 01:05:55 |
| tomberek | another angle (but it may backfire with a niche community) would be to stress the value of Nixpkgs | 01:12:33 |
| evils | yea i was mostly inclined to have a nix/NixOS split as i think having the number of packages in nixpkgs available on any distro on its own is the biggest hook we have for casual linux users | 01:13:32 |
| jonringer | I mean, there's nothing in nix which was added to make NixOS work. The module system works in a similar way to overlays, and those are just functional programming concepts, not nix-specific concepts | 01:13:36 |
| jonringer | But I would still say that NixOS modules, and declarative system configuration is still a novel idea. And it's one of the defining features of NixOS | 01:14:35 |
| evils | In reply to @jonringer:matrix.org
I mean, there's nothing in nix which was added to make NixOS work. The module system works in a similar way to overlays, and those are just functional programming concepts, not nix-specific concepts "nix is so general purpose, they happened to make an OS with it" | 01:15:05 |
| jonringer | sure, but I'm not sure what you're "selling" with that | 01:15:46 |
| evils | In reply to @jonringer:matrix.org
sure, but I'm not sure what you're "selling" with that mostly that it's not a niche tool | 01:16:05 |
| tomberek | The number of things that work with sane defaults via "services.COOL-THING.enable = true;" is wonderful. | 01:16:13 |
| jonringer | s/general purpose/composable/g and I think that would stand better | 01:16:34 |
| evils | yea but i couldn't define "composable" if asked
and the nix tool itself isn't composable | 01:17:03 |
| evils | i feel like suggesting people try NixOS is like asking them to jump in the deep end
with using nix as a package manager on whatever distro they're on, is the shallow end | 01:19:47 |
| evils | maybe i'm just biased because that's how i got into NixOS | 01:20:45 |
| evils | but i feel like i'd get more people to install nix than NixOS
and once they're using nix, moving to NixOS feels almost inevitable | 01:21:34 |
| jonringer | by composable, I mean nix packages with other nix packages | 01:22:59 |
| jonringer | you could have a python2 application with a python3 environment, and it should work | 01:23:16 |
