| 21 Feb 2024 |
 @zimbatm:numtide.com | hmm | 15:38:39 |
 @apcodes:matrix.org | Assuming there are no real legal hurdles here, I guess in a way that could be the idea I was trying to outline: the foundation empowers the infra team to make such decisions relating to infra. And the foundation makes sure that if people are really upset about the infra team's decisions they can complain and the foundation promises in advance to look into the matter in such a case and override the decision if necessary and have a talk with people on the infra team.
Of course if the conflict at hand is more about the philosophy of free software (which I can easily see), it might be helpful for the foundation to at least know what their philosophy is before they empower the infra team to implement it. | 15:41:04 |
| @apcodes:matrix.org | basically: if the foundation has the authority but doesn't really want to get involved, what else can it do but to delegate the authority? | 15:41:44 |
| @apcodes:matrix.org | In reply to @zimbatm:numtide.com
To make things simple, we don't have officially stated values :) But once you have a project direction / ethics / values problem, that might actually make things more complicated :) | 15:45:09 |
| @apcodes:matrix.org | basically my view is this. If you have a values problem you have an alternative: these values or these other values. And since you have no stated values antecedent to the problem, anyone who feels to be empowered to make a decision will also make a decision that shapes the values somehow. And so if you try to actively avoid that, it is hardly surprising that no one is making a decision and no one feels empowered. | 15:49:57 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | I fear that talking about RFCs would derail this conversation, but it's definitely a topic to have at some point.
What concerns me here is that there are a lot of issues like the one above where we spent energy discussing it, but then nothing happens. It seems such a waste of focus for everyone involved, and it doesn't feel good. | 16:01:20 |
| @apcodes:matrix.org | I will only say this much and then leave and see later if this goes anywhere in the meantime :) Looking at the past that I haven't been a part of, I can see where this impression of a waste of focus is coming from. I can fully understand why stuff taking up a lot of energy and then getting stuck doesn't feel good. It might even have been better had there been any clear decision, regardless which way. Because a lot of the stuff appears to keep just lingering over years. | 16:10:14 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | Exactly. And we risk of losing people that like to get things done. Most decisions set a direction, but are also reversible. | 16:17:01 |
| @apcodes:matrix.org | And reversing them should be all good if enough people notice 2 months later that they aren't happy. | 16:18:10 |
 @delroth:delroth.net | fighting for decisions to be reversed is significantly more tiring and stressful than being able to express opinions beforehand fwiw | 16:18:40 |
 joepie91 🏳️🌈 | without wanting to get involved in the broader discussion here right now, I would like to leave this here as it is potentially tangentially related to the matter at hand: https://discourse.nixos.org/t/open-offer-politics-in-tech-sessions/40097 | 16:18:42 |
| @delroth:delroth.net | <--- still scarred by the merge bot | 16:18:46 |
| * joepie91 🏳️🌈 will refrain from further involvement in the discussion right now | 16:19:03 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | In reply to @delroth:delroth.net
<--- still scarred by the merge bot sorry... | 16:19:28 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | the merge bot was a bit of an over-correction | 16:20:19 |
 tomberek | It has taken more than two years... but I'm hoping the formatting is on the finish line. | 16:29:21 |
|  SomeoneSerge (hash-versioned python modules when) joined the room. | 16:36:39 |
| tomberek | who, will/should address any problems related to the decision? It seems it will be Foundation (legal), infra (technical).
There not being official values (vision,goals,guidance,mission, etc) means this decision is made in a bit of a vacuum, leading to no decision. See discussion above about vision+goals. | 16:39:08 |
| tomberek | Ah, another dimension, funding the cost, is under the Foundation's purvey. | 16:40:28 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | Yeah, probably a simple decision-making framework would be helpful. Something like:
- Do I need to get the impure of any team? If yes, ask them
- Who can make the decision? If unclear, ask the foundation.
And if that framework is more widely known, then everybody can run it.
| 16:47:53 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | * Yeah, probably a simple decision-making framework would be helpful. Something like:
- Do I need to get the imput of any team? If yes, ask them
- Who can make the decision? If unclear, ask the foundation.
And if that framework is more widely known, then everybody can run it.
| 16:48:03 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | * Yeah, probably a simple decision-making framework would be helpful. Something like:
- Do I need to get the input of any team? If yes, ask them
- Who can make the decision? If unclear, ask the foundation.
And if that framework is more widely known, then everybody can run it.
| 16:48:09 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | Part of this is also a cultural/attitude problem | 16:49:01 |
| @delroth:delroth.net | really imo this just needs someone willing to start a discourse thread asking for objections, leaving enough time for contributors and active community members to participate, then figure out how to handle the eventual objections - the whole discussion about infra and the foundation are red herring here, at least from infra we'll figure out how to execute the decision | 16:50:59 |
| @delroth:delroth.net | * really imo this just needs someone willing to start a discourse thread asking for objections, leaving enough time for contributors and active community members to participate, then figure out how to handle the eventual objections - the whole discussion about infra and the foundation are red herrings here, at least from infra we'll figure out how to execute the decision | 16:51:14 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | right, having people that drive things is also super important | 16:51:56 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | do you think everybody is aware that they are empowered to do this? | 16:52:31 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | * do you think most people are aware that they are empowered to do this? | 16:52:42 |
| tomberek | likely no | 16:52:47 |
| @delroth:delroth.net | I feel like we have a bunch of people who are aware they are empowered to do this but don't particularly care about unfree packages :-) | 16:52:56 |
