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Zulip setup coordination

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Coordination to setup https://nixpkgs.zulipchat.com/, see https://github.com/NixOS/foundation/issues/14327 Servers

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8 Mar 2024
@raitobezarius:matrix.orgraitobezarius Because now we are having a discussion about various hypothetical concerns that potentially the moderation team may target you and this is a textbook example of FUD, I think the values the moderation team has put on the table are quite clear, I think the people hurt by people banned are a clear set of people, well-identified in the community. 18:47:14
@jonringer:matrix.org@jonringer:matrix.orgI really don't think it's needless noise. And calling his frustrations as needless or noise is very dismissive, and borderline offensive.18:47:29
@apcodes:matrix.org@apcodes:matrix.org I don't think that was needless noise tomberek . Just for the record. 18:47:36
@piegames:matrix.org@piegames:matrix.orgI can explain that "dual-standard for small infractions". Unless people very clearly cross a big fat red line, any moderation action would be heavily criticized as unwarranted. Due to this permanent lack of trust from the outside, we are forced to wait until people very clearly overstep and have proof of it. There occasions where people know where the line is and dance on it, with lots of small overstepping and microagressions. Until the moderation team has more trust in the community about its actions, there is little we can do about it without getting public backlash. Srid and Blaggacao are perfect examples of that. We banned Srid comparatively early (disclaimer: I was not part of the moderation team back then), and look what you think about that decision. On the other hand, Blaggacao could set the Discourse on fire for months, until he so clearly overstepped every line that we could be sure nobody would attack the ban. He should have been banned way earlier.18:47:58
@raitobezarius:matrix.orgraitobezarius

I'm trying to come up with the right way to explain the frustration.

18:48:36
@raitobezarius:matrix.orgraitobezariusTomberek is a person I love to work with and we have a personal relationship, but, I think that their approach in this instance is not needed because this will throw more confusion to the whole discussion.18:49:18
@jonringer:matrix.org@jonringer:matrix.orgMy rebuttable is that I think what he had said largely overlapped with how I felt. There are certainly differences in how people and actions are perceived.18:50:33
@raitobezarius:matrix.orgraitobezariusYes, I can definitely see how you feel, but I don't see what promotes the reality of it, hence I'm asking about the latter, not the former.18:51:09
@tomberek:matrix.orgtomberekAnything more specific is probably not appropriate in this venue as should be done directly with mod team or in private; specifically because it would inflame the issue further in public forum. I was hoping to stay general as a way to encompass the thoughts of as many people as possible, rather than trying to litigate a specific situation.18:51:28
@raitobezarius:matrix.orgraitobezariusIt's totally fair for you to feel what you feel, but I don't think we should act solely based on feelings.18:51:31
@jonringer:matrix.org@jonringer:matrix.orgNot going to defend Blaggacao, very stubborn. A lot of his efforts could be considered "Trolling, insulting/derogatory comments, and personal or political attacks" under https://github.com/NixOS/.github/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md#our-standards. Also the kind of person to push things to the extreme.18:51:56
@7c6f434c:nitro.chat7c6f434cWell if you want to have banned Blaggacao earlier, then I guess you'd need to have an explicit policy about arguing in good-faith but staying clueless.18:52:00
@jonringer:matrix.org@jonringer:matrix.orgSaid nicely, "He's wiling to die on a hill for his convictions"18:52:27
@raitobezarius:matrix.orgraitobezarius

I was hoping to stay general as a way to encompass the thoughts of as many people as possible, rather than trying to litigate a specific situation.

I think we have exhausted the general style discussion in the past months.

18:52:33
@apcodes:matrix.org@apcodes:matrix.org
In reply to @piegames:matrix.org
I can explain that "dual-standard for small infractions".

Unless people very clearly cross a big fat red line, any moderation action would be heavily criticized as unwarranted. Due to this permanent lack of trust from the outside, we are forced to wait until people very clearly overstep and have proof of it.

There occasions where people know where the line is and dance on it, with lots of small overstepping and microagressions. Until the moderation team has more trust in the community about its actions, there is little we can do about it without getting public backlash.

Srid and Blaggacao are perfect examples of that. We banned Srid comparatively early (disclaimer: I was not part of the moderation team back then), and look what you think about that decision. On the other hand, Blaggacao could set the Discourse on fire for months, until he so clearly overstepped every line that we could be sure nobody would attack the ban. He should have been banned way earlier.

if you draw your lines well, I'd say you should have no problem with people dancing on them. But going back to the unclear expectations: I don't even know the lines. I asked people. I still don't know the lines.

Blaggacao could set the Discourse on fire for months [...] He should have been banned way earlier.

I mean I have been in contact with him a bit now. My discourse with him hasn't been on fire. So I don't get that problem. But again, if he so clearly overstepped every line: What is the line? Is there a transparent document that I can read to get info about the lines?

18:52:34
@raitobezarius:matrix.orgraitobezariusAnd honestly if that's the sort of discussion we want to have.18:54:10
@raitobezarius:matrix.orgraitobezariusI will go revive RFC98 now I think.18:54:16
@piegames:matrix.org@piegames:matrix.orgThis is not about Blaggacao as a person specifically. This is meant as an example of where we had to watch a single person wreak havoc for way too long without being able to properly intervene due to fear of repercussions.18:54:17
@raitobezarius:matrix.orgraitobezariusThat will be a more productive way of discussing this.18:54:24
@jonringer:matrix.org@jonringer:matrix.org

That will be a more productive way of discussing this.

We now have other RFCs for the moderation body and the NixOS Foundation has already ratified a CoC. RFC98 would need to be heavily modified, and likely go against the NixOS foundation to achieve it's original intent.

18:56:36
@zimbatm:numtide.com@zimbatm:numtide.comQuick meta point; I think these types of conversations are emotionally exhausting for everyone involved. And that takes a tool on the community. Maybe it's best to address one person's concerns at the time.18:57:07
@zimbatm:numtide.com@zimbatm:numtide.com * Quick meta point; I think these types of conversations are emotionally exhausting for everyone involved. And that takes a toll on the community. Maybe it's best to address one person's concerns at the time.18:57:21
@infinisil:matrix.orginfinisil apcodes: The moderation teams page links to the CoC: https://github.com/NixOS/moderation 18:57:32
@jonringer:matrix.org@jonringer:matrix.orgI'm glad we agree :)18:57:58
@7c6f434c:nitro.chat7c6f434c Well, are you sure you recover its original intent from the text correctly? I agree that not all policies are clear, but RFC98 is another level of avoiding being clear. 18:58:19
@raitobezarius:matrix.orgraitobezarius apcodes: I don't want to pull the "you have to be this tall" to participate, but could you clarify your status in this community w.r.t. to your actions? I have seen your long wall of text for months now, but I don't see you in any sort of working group, am I missing something? 18:59:28
@apcodes:matrix.org@apcodes:matrix.orgyeah I am aware of that document. In fact if you go back into the debate following it's acceptance, I made quite a few comments there. But the CoC doesn't answer of my question sadly. I also asked the relevant people why the other relevant people were banned. I can't really comprehend it. Which lines were crossed by whom and when?19:00:13
@raitobezarius:matrix.orgraitobezariusWhat I'm certain of is that I am tired of seeing colleagues burning out and being hurt because we actually do not have enough proactive moderation, so, yeah.19:01:28
@infinisil:matrix.orginfinisilNot sure what your point is. It seems like you are pulling a "you have to be this tall", which I don't think is necessary19:01:41
@apcodes:matrix.org@apcodes:matrix.org

You see raitobezarius that is really odd as comment on the personal level now. Why are you doing this?

However to explain me being around right here right now and my interest in all this would require a bit more walls of text. It is actually more of a coincidence originally.

19:02:44

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