That said, you might be right that we are still too slow to respond or escalate when conflict arises, and I appreciate the feedback

I sympathize with you all as well though, being on-call 24-7 every day isn't a healthy mindset. It would be awesome of the Nix community could self-correct blatantly poor behavior of individuals. I just think that currently there hass been too much reliance on the moderation team to be the first responders in every situation.

When we approach something closer to a formal policy decision, can I enlist you to offer your feedback on it?

Sure the community matters a lot me both as a person and contributor. I would love to be able to participate in trying to make this a better platform for everyone.

When we issue warnings and suspensions, it is because talk has failed and those tools are necessary to prevent further devolution.

Yea, I guess that is the major shift in perspective. Not having a moderation action be some scarlet letter, but rather a situational tool for community de-escalation.

It would be awesome of the Nix community could self-correct blatantly poor behavior of individuals.
I wasn't there in real time, but looking back through the logs this is something that I would say I saw happening, directed at you. You didn't take it well. How do you think this sort of self-correction ought to happen differently?

It would be awesome of the Nix community could self-correct blatantly poor behavior of individuals.

I wasn't there in real time, but looking back through the logs this is something that I would say I saw happening, directed at you. You didn't take it well. How do you think this sort of self-correction ought to happen differently?

I wasn't there in real time, but looking back through the logs this is something that I would say I saw happening, directed at you. You didn't take it well.

I would also say that I was pretty defensive yesterday as there was ~6 individuals which were acting as unified front in opposition to my viewpoints or person. tomberek I think was helpful in many regards, but the events transpired over many hours. Obviously he couldn't be a mediating presence for all of that period of time.

How do you think this sort of self-correction ought to happen differently?

Not sure, I keep mixing the present with some hypothetical future which may never come in terms of a "self-correcting" community.

Banning individual users in Matrix is often less than ideal because unbanned users can pile on in the meantime while we're trying to deescalate, and playing whack-a-mole with everyone in the room can distract from the more important task.

Not sure how to solve that, it is a pretty annoying tooling problem.

But if we had the tech to do things here the way we do it on Discourse, I think it'd be better.

Absolutely

I'm not going to fully respond to this to avoid a flare up.

Just because your perception of the events don't align the definition of dogpile, doesn't mean that there was an atmosphere where I wasn't in a position to defense myself.

If I were to say:

to put it bluntly: you all need to learn that not everything is about you, not everything is your business, and you need to either start contributing to the safety of marginalized folks the Nix Community, or take a fucking step back and let other people actually do their job

How would you respond? Would you feel like you're being attacked?

I don't actually want a response, the fight is over. I just want people to be open to the idea that the discourse went way off into an unproductive manner. And there was seemingly little push back to the aggression (even from mods), which is the more concerning part for me.

I'm not going to fully respond to this to avoid a flare up.

Just because your perception of the events don't align the definition of dogpile, doesn't mean that there was an atmosphere where I wasn't in a position to defend myself.

If I were to say:

to put it bluntly: you all need to learn that not everything is about you, not everything is your business, and you need to either start contributing to the safety of marginalized folks the Nix Community, or take a fucking step back and let other people actually do their job

How would you respond? Would you feel like you're being attacked?

I don't actually want a response, the fight is over. I just want people to be open to the idea that the discourse went way off into an unproductive manner. And there was seemingly little push back to the aggression (even from mods), which is the more concerning part for me.

I'm not going to fully respond to this to avoid a flare up.

Just because your perception of the events don't align the definition of dogpile, doesn't mean that there was an atmosphere where I wasn't in a position to defend myself.

If I were to say (quoting from here):

to put it bluntly: you all need to learn that not everything is about you, not everything is your business, and you need to either start contributing to the safety of marginalized folks the Nix Community, or take a fucking step back and let other people actually do their job

How would you respond? Would you feel like you're being attacked?

I don't actually want a response, the fight is over. I just want people to be open to the idea that the discourse went way off into an unproductive manner. And there was seemingly little push back to the aggression (even from mods), which is the more concerning part for me.

I'm not going to fully respond to this to avoid a flare up.

Just because your perception of the events don't align the definition of dogpile, doesn't mean that there was an atmosphere where I wasn't in a position to defend myself.

If I were to say (quoting from here):

to put it bluntly: you all need to learn that not everything is about you, not everything is your business, and you need to either start contributing to the safety of marginalized folks the Nix Community, or take a fucking step back and let other people actually do their job

How would you respond? Would you feel like you're being attacked?

I don't actually want a response, the fight is over. I just want people to be open to the idea that the discourse went way off into an uncivil and unproductive manner. And there was seemingly little push back to the aggression (even from mods), which is the more concerning part for me.

the possibility of 5% of the people not agreeing with you

I'm not going to play a numbers game. But that's a gross underestimation of active participants.

to the point they come across as frustrated, and use language that reflects that

Yea, I was frustrated too. The CoC is pretty clear about acceptable inter-personal behavior, and how one should conduct themselves.
Because I'm not a mod, attempts to self-correct behavior is seen as unacceptable.

Our current state of affairs are:

• Community members can't self correct behavior because it's "not their place". Even if they are correct in absolute terms.
• All matters of conflict must be delegated to the moderation team.
• Moderation team has to use big hammers to enact moderation actions, giving them great weight when applied.

We essentially have an environment where the marginalized have no voice without involving the moderation team. And when action is taken, there's a big blast radius.

"I'm not going to play a numbers game. But that's a gross underestimation of active participants."

Just using what you wrote yourself up above "there was ~6 individuals which were acting as unified front in opposition to my viewpoints or person."

And I'm fairly done with interacting here, but there are so many hypocritical messages by now, it almost becomes satire. The marginalized tried to create an RFC (probably the most difficult thing one can do within the Nix community, for a multitude of reasons) that you yourself seem to oppose.

Anyways, I'm going to quit because my point is fairly clear by now. All other attempts would just be rehashing what is already written. I implore you to do the same, or come with something actionable.

Since this is a governance channel, looking back, I don't think this was the right place to broach this topic. This is a team specific issue.

If you have grievances or uncertainties with a team, the best is to first go talk to them directly. Please be polite, address one topic at the same time, and avoid having multiple voices pile onto the same topic. The goal should be to try to find a common ground and try to provide constructive feedback instead of telling them what to do. Each team is composed of volunteers that are trying the best they can. In this case, #moderation:nixos.org is the best point of contact.

Each team has the authority to handle their area how they best see fit. In this case, it's up to the moderation team to decide what they want to do with this feedback.

If you exhausted all possibilities, the foundation can be used as a fallback to unblock situations. But please only use this as a last resort.

Enough energy has been spent on this topic so please all take a step back.

In reply to @jonringer:matrix.org

I wasn't there in real time, but looking back through the logs this is something that I would say I saw happening, directed at you. You didn't take it well.

I would also say that I was pretty defensive yesterday as there was ~6 individuals which were acting as unified front in opposition to my viewpoints or person. tomberek I think was helpful in many regards, but the events transpired over many hours. Obviously he couldn't be a mediating presence for all of that period of time.

How do you think this sort of self-correction ought to happen differently?

Not sure, I keep mixing the present with some hypothetical future which may never come in terms of a "self-correcting" community.

The fact that you see this as people being "against" you makes me wonder if spending that time discussing with you was worth it, tbh.

IMO when discussions are seen as adversarial they have already failed their purpose. Because this means that changing one's opinion implies that one "lost" the discussion.

I discuss to explain my view of things, and I do not want you to agree with me. I just want you to understand me.

I feel like I understand you a lot better now, so at least in that direction this was not in vein.

The fact that you see this as people being "against" you

Please look at joepie's comments and the lack of anyone trying to keep the language civil. The thread evovlved over the course hours, there was long periods of it being civil. And a long tail of it not.

if spending that time discussing with you was worth it, tbh.

These unresolved issues have largely kept me from feeling welcome in the Nix Community for 2+ years. And I'm likely not the only one.

IMO when discussions are seen as adversarial they have already failed their purpose.

I felt it was productive up until joepie started verbally harassing me in the thread. I think generalizing the discussion to just certain portions where it diverted (through some fault of my own) way off course, was not productive. I agree.

I discuss to explain my view of things, and I do not want you to agree with me. I just want you to understand me.

I'm trying; online, text-only, is a poor median of exchange. There's much more nuance than can be expressed in prose alone.

I feel like I understand you a lot better now, so at least in that direction this was not in vein.

I would love an in-person call with moderation time. I think the discourse of the past through days has really distilled why I've had this looming cognitive dissonance for a long time.

I'm not going to be the last person to "love Nix, but concerned about how the community treats some members"