!VyoUhyWvlhSpFWWxHL:matrix.org

Zulip setup coordination

92 Members
Coordination to setup https://nixpkgs.zulipchat.com/, see https://github.com/NixOS/foundation/issues/14329 Servers

Load older messages


SenderMessageTime
8 Mar 2024
@apcodes:matrix.org@apcodes:matrix.orgYes, I don't know what is going on frankly19:08:30
@raitobezarius:matrix.orgraitobezariusI don't know what 'inappropriate' means in this context, and you will have to explain it to me, but I am fed up with sinking hours of my life in what is concern trolling to me.19:08:52
@apcodes:matrix.org@apcodes:matrix.orgyes, but it isn't concern trolling to me, right?19:09:11
@raitobezarius:matrix.orgraitobezariusI hope you can understand that my time is not owned by anyone who want to debate me on theoretical concerns over CoC, moderation decisions and whatever. I would like to spend my time ensuring we have a healthy community and doing actual productive work.19:09:30
@apcodes:matrix.org@apcodes:matrix.orgI tried to explain this to you in the very beginning actually.19:09:38
@infinisil:matrix.orginfinisil I don't think apcodes said anything in appropriate in this channels discussion 19:09:46
@infinisil:matrix.orginfinisil * I don't think apcodes said anything inappropriate in this channels discussion 19:09:51
@raitobezarius:matrix.orgraitobezariusYeah maybe you don't see infinisil19:09:56
@raitobezarius:matrix.orgraitobezariusBut this is exactly what this discussion is about19:10:00
@apcodes:matrix.org@apcodes:matrix.orgI at least hope I didn't, yes19:10:02
@raitobezarius:matrix.orgraitobezariusThis is why we have a moderation team and this is why I will leave them the decisionmaking19:10:25
@apcodes:matrix.org@apcodes:matrix.orgbut this feeds back into unclear expectations: I have no idea what I did wrong if anything19:10:28
@apcodes:matrix.org@apcodes:matrix.orgI'd love to know though. And this is part of the reason why I am here actually.19:11:33
@piegames:matrix.org@piegames:matrix.org

Sure. I've already started efforts to increase the moderation team's internal transparency, both for historic reasons and new potential team members. As for the public decisions, this still requires two questions answered:

  • How do we protect the individuals affected by the moderation action? This involves privacy questions, potential victims, and also not becoming a permanent public wall of shame
  • How do we ensure that publishing moderation decisions does not result in uninvolved people voicing their opinion and re-hashing everything?
19:12:45
@jonringer:matrix.org@jonringer:matrix.orgTo be clear, I'm very thankful of all the effort that the Moderation Team puts into keeping day-to-day Nix workflows civil. My concern is that even thought I don't align with srid on everything he did or say. As a former member of the US Air Force, being left-of-center on personal liberties, but right-of-center on cultural norms. I could have as easily been labeled a "bigot" and "fascist" just as easily. And I think his "why is my personal life your concern" argument had merit. He had been a contributor in the nix and haskell spaces for years prior, and his personal views were not much of an issue. Most of the "why are you being such a bigot" antagonism was him fighting the perceived "you are an enemy of the state". And to tomberek's point earlier, there have been other individuals who have blantantly been verbally harassing others with "F you's", which is in clear contradiction of several of the CoC clauses; but not received any recourse.19:13:22
@raitobezarius:matrix.orgraitobezarius
In reply to @raitobezarius:matrix.org
I don't want to see you anymore, I will ban you now.
I realize I'm admin of the room, so just to be clear: /ignore
19:14:13
@raitobezarius:matrix.orgraitobezariusThough srid had literally the same issues as with the Nix community in the Haskell community19:16:25
@jonringer:matrix.org@jonringer:matrix.orgYou asked me to provide specific examples, so I will ask the same of you.19:17:18
@piegames:matrix.org@piegames:matrix.org

but not received any recourse

this is because by default the moderation team acts in private. The moderation team often times reaches out to talk with individuals about problematic behavior, but ideally this is rarely visible to the public. (In our community currently, public=drama)

19:17:30
@raitobezarius:matrix.orgraitobezariusOf problematic behaviors of srid in Haskell community?19:17:35
@jonringer:matrix.org@jonringer:matrix.orgI will leave the interpretation of your statement to you :)19:18:15
@raitobezarius:matrix.orgraitobezariusWell, that's not helpful then to answer.19:18:35
@jonringer:matrix.org@jonringer:matrix.orgYea, but from my perspective. Some of it gets swept under the rug. Other drama gets someone's hand chopped off.19:19:43
@infinisil:matrix.orginfinisil
In reply to @piegames:matrix.org

Sure. I've already started efforts to increase the moderation team's internal transparency, both for historic reasons and new potential team members. As for the public decisions, this still requires two questions answered:

  • How do we protect the individuals affected by the moderation action? This involves privacy questions, potential victims, and also not becoming a permanent public wall of shame
  • How do we ensure that publishing moderation decisions does not result in uninvolved people voicing their opinion and re-hashing everything?

How do we protect the individuals affected by the moderation action?

Justify decisions properly, ideally referencing the CoC. Make sure for the entire team to reach consensus on harder decisions and label it as such.

In the end, the moderation team holds a lot of power and is therefore also accountable for its actions. This also means that just like any other team it should be open for feedback to some degree. A decision log means nothing if can't be responded to.

19:21:28
@jonringer:matrix.org@jonringer:matrix.orgGlad we agree then.19:22:21
@infinisil:matrix.orginfinisilAlso: The moderation team might make mistakes, we're all human after all. It should be acceptable to point out mistakes or admit and correct them.19:23:21
@piegames:matrix.org@piegames:matrix.org
In reply to @jonringer:matrix.org
To be clear, I'm very thankful of all the effort that the Moderation Team puts into keeping day-to-day Nix workflows civil.

My concern is that even thought I don't align with srid on everything he did or say. As a former member of the US Air Force, being left-of-center on personal liberties, but right-of-center on cultural norms. I could have as easily been labeled a "bigot" and "fascist" just as easily. And I think his "why is my personal life your concern" argument had merit. He had been a contributor in the nix and haskell spaces for years prior, and his personal views were not much of an issue. Most of the "why are you being such a bigot" antagonism was him fighting the perceived "you are an enemy of the state". And to tomberek's point earlier, there have been other individuals who have blantantly been verbally harassing others with "F you's", which is in clear contradiction of several of the CoC clauses; but not received any recourse.
I know that people throw around these terms rather liberally or even weaponize them. This is a real problem, especially in politically left-leaning bubbles. But if you are scared that you'd be called a fascist that easily, I suggest to maybe reflect on that a bit? (This is not a "If you're scared about being called a fascist then you are one" rhetorical question btw., I am genuine about this)
19:23:38
@piegames:matrix.org@piegames:matrix.org
In reply to @infinisil:matrix.org

How do we protect the individuals affected by the moderation action?

Justify decisions properly, ideally referencing the CoC. Make sure for the entire team to reach consensus on harder decisions and label it as such.

In the end, the moderation team holds a lot of power and is therefore also accountable for its actions. This also means that just like any other team it should be open for feedback to some degree. A decision log means nothing if can't be responded to.

This is not an answer to the question, sorry. The rest of the bullet point you quote is important
19:24:41
@piegames:matrix.org@piegames:matrix.orgLet me rephrase maybe: How do we document moderation cases without compromising the privacy and safety of the persons involved, and without becoming a public wall of shame?19:25:53
@infinisil:matrix.orginfinisilOhh that was about the individuals being affected by the decision, not the individuals of the moderation team, I see19:26:13

Show newer messages


Back to Room ListRoom Version: 10