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Zulip setup coordination

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Coordination to setup https://nixpkgs.zulipchat.com/, see https://github.com/NixOS/foundation/issues/14332 Servers

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8 Mar 2024
@jonringer:matrix.org@jonringer:matrix.org"Perception is reality"20:33:04
@piegames:matrix.org@piegames:matrix.orgWhat20:33:14
@piegames:matrix.org@piegames:matrix.org
In reply to @jonringer:matrix.org
I honestly believe that srid doesn't hold hatred for gender minorities . Just current woke culture.
Then why is his website full of hurtful content? You literally linked to stuff 15 minutes ago. Have you not read it? (I mean I wouldn't blame you tbh, it contains lots of fluffy words to hide behind, which make it tiring to read)
20:36:25
@jonringer:matrix.org@jonringer:matrix.orgI'm saying that, I think people were inferring more about srid than is really there. Unless you can prove me wrong, please I would be happy to be proven wrong. These long researched blog posts don't seem like it's coming from a place of stubbornness, but rather intellectual exploration. From the outside, I believe you could infer hatred if you wanted to come to that conclusion.20:36:57
@jonringer:matrix.org@jonringer:matrix.orgI don't agree with everything in there, however, I can see that argument's position. Being able to change your point of reference doesn't mean you have to align with it20:37:44
@piegames:matrix.org@piegames:matrix.orgAnd I'm saying that, these texts are deliberately written with plausible deniability in mind and that only reading them at a surface level is naive.20:38:08
@zimbatm:numtide.com@zimbatm:numtide.comthanks ryan. apcodes is only appearing for these types of discussions and generally to inflame them. here we're trying to find a solution for jon, not solve the whole internet's understanding of things.20:39:32
@piegames:matrix.org@piegames:matrix.org(Also if you dig long enough and do some actual snooping you'll eventually get a glimpse of the unveiled nature behind this. Just scroll long enough through his Twitter account if you're into that)20:40:20
@jonringer:matrix.org@jonringer:matrix.orgI'm fuzzy how these long-winded articles get elevated to actionable-hatred. Sure I can see your argument a public facade being more palatable, but I don't think that would take the form of selectively quoting other articles. 20:40:25
@jonringer:matrix.org@jonringer:matrix.org *

I'm fuzzy how these long-winded articles get elevated to actionable-hatred.

Sure I can see your argument a public facade being more palatable, but I don't think that would take the form of selectively quoting long-winded articles.

20:41:34
@7c6f434c:nitro.chat7c6f434c
In reply to @piegames:matrix.org
What
Do you have any idea what has been officially declared to be hurtful to the feelings of religious people in some places with questionable court of law? «Hurtful» without some details and context is not an automatically well-defined word
20:41:35
@7c6f434c:nitro.chat7c6f434c
In reply to @piegames:matrix.org
What
* Do you have any idea what has been officially declared to be hurtful to the feelings of religious people in some places with questionable courts and questionable rule of law? «Hurtful» without some details and context is not an automatically well-defined word
20:41:53
@piegames:matrix.org@piegames:matrix.org
In reply to @7c6f434c:nitro.chat
Do you have any idea what has been officially declared to be hurtful to the feelings of religious people in some places with questionable courts and questionable rule of law? «Hurtful» without some details and context is not an automatically well-defined word

I won't rules lawyer here. Yes like everything it is a spectrum, and yes you have to draw a line somewhere, and yes this sometimes depends on a case by case basis.

This is completely irrelevant to my point though.

20:43:37
@jonringer:matrix.org@jonringer:matrix.org

Just scroll long enough through his Twitter account if you're into that

Maybe it's just me, but I really don't care about what he shares on Twitter, it's his personal soap box. What I care about from the Nix Contributor perspective is that I'm able to cooperate with someone about Nix in a constructive manner. And if his personal beliefs affect the ability of us progressing then I would say that's an issue. However, most of his discourse was on Discourse (pun not intended) and he was usually good to interact with on github.

20:43:48
@7c6f434c:nitro.chat7c6f434c
In reply to @piegames:matrix.org

I won't rules lawyer here. Yes like everything it is a spectrum, and yes you have to draw a line somewhere, and yes this sometimes depends on a case by case basis.

This is completely irrelevant to my point though.

This is relevant to whether your point gets across a meaningful rule, or not.
20:44:21
@piegames:matrix.org@piegames:matrix.org
In reply to @jonringer:matrix.org

Just scroll long enough through his Twitter account if you're into that

Maybe it's just me, but I really don't care about what he shares on Twitter, it's his personal soap box. What I care about from the Nix Contributor perspective is that I'm able to cooperate with someone about Nix in a constructive manner. And if his personal beliefs affect the ability of us progressing then I would say that's an issue. However, most of his discourse was on Discourse (pun not intended) and he was usually good to interact with on github.

You asked for something, I told you where to look for it, you suddenly say "I don't care"

Make up your mind.

20:45:27
@7c6f434c:nitro.chat7c6f434cYou asked whether those hypothetical posts were hurtful. There would be people solemnly swearing those are hurtful. This is not what you meant though, but what you meant exactly is unclear20:45:57
@jonringer:matrix.org@jonringer:matrix.orgYou said that his writings held hatred, so they were relevant to what you asked for earlier. However, my original point in starting this discussion is that these personal beliefs SHOULDN'T matter unless they manifested themselves in a negative way in the Community.20:46:53
@jonringer:matrix.org@jonringer:matrix.orgI don't want to fight your fight by your rules, then for you to change the rules of the fight.20:47:35
@piegames:matrix.org@piegames:matrix.org
In reply to @jonringer:matrix.org
You said that his writings held hatred, so they were relevant to what you asked for earlier.

However, my original point in starting this discussion is that these personal beliefs SHOULDN'T matter unless they manifested themselves in a negative way in the Community.
Which I agree to to some degree, except that in this case some of them did manifest themselves in a negative way in the community.
20:47:49
@7c6f434c:nitro.chat7c6f434c
In reply to @piegames:matrix.org

You asked for something, I told you where to look for it, you suddenly say "I don't care"

Make up your mind.

If his twitter is one hop further from the user profile than the website, then mentioning the Twitter posts does not answer the question of what were the bad things on the website
20:48:22
@jonringer:matrix.org@jonringer:matrix.orgWould you care to provide some examples? I'm sure there's something from the moderation decisions which would help with clarifying exact instances where his behavior was unacceptable.20:48:58
@piegames:matrix.org@piegames:matrix.org
In reply to @7c6f434c:nitro.chat
If his twitter is one hop further from the user profile than the website, then mentioning the Twitter posts does not answer the question of what were the bad things on the website
They were literally linked to half an hour ago. There's other stuff on there defending KiwiFarms, and probably more if you have the strength to really read all of it.
20:49:27
@danielrf:matrix.orgdanielrf joined the room.20:50:31
@piegames:matrix.org@piegames:matrix.org
In reply to @jonringer:matrix.org
Would you care to provide some examples? I'm sure there's something from the moderation decisions which would help with clarifying exact instances where his behavior was unacceptable.
No, I do not have the emotional capacity to re-hash this again in detail and explaining it, I have already read too much of this stuff for today.
20:50:42
@piegames:matrix.org@piegames:matrix.orgAnd at a certain point, if reading it for yourself won't convince you, then I likely won't be able to change your mind either.20:51:09
@7c6f434c:nitro.chat7c6f434c
In reply to @piegames:matrix.org
They were literally linked to half an hour ago. There's other stuff on there defending KiwiFarms, and probably more if you have the strength to really read all of it.
I have read the current state of the specific page that was linked
20:52:03
@piegames:matrix.org@piegames:matrix.orgAlso I'm going now, doing something happier with my evening than trying to discuss transphobia on the internet 👋20:52:23
@zimbatm:numtide.com@zimbatm:numtide.comThis might also be a process issue. If people feel like they can be banned instantly for saying the wrong things, then it might be because it feels so sudden. If there was a 3 strike rule, or another style is to timeout people profusely. Both of these approaches help create this guardrail feeling where you know where you stand. 20:53:10
@jonringer:matrix.org@jonringer:matrix.orgThis was never about transphobia. But separation of personal view from actions in a community.20:53:43

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