| 8 Mar 2024 |
 infinisil | Also: The moderation team might make mistakes, we're all human after all. It should be acceptable to point out mistakes or admit and correct them. | 19:23:21 |
 @piegames:matrix.org | In reply to @jonringer:matrix.org
To be clear, I'm very thankful of all the effort that the Moderation Team puts into keeping day-to-day Nix workflows civil.
My concern is that even thought I don't align with srid on everything he did or say. As a former member of the US Air Force, being left-of-center on personal liberties, but right-of-center on cultural norms. I could have as easily been labeled a "bigot" and "fascist" just as easily. And I think his "why is my personal life your concern" argument had merit. He had been a contributor in the nix and haskell spaces for years prior, and his personal views were not much of an issue. Most of the "why are you being such a bigot" antagonism was him fighting the perceived "you are an enemy of the state". And to tomberek's point earlier, there have been other individuals who have blantantly been verbally harassing others with "F you's", which is in clear contradiction of several of the CoC clauses; but not received any recourse. I know that people throw around these terms rather liberally or even weaponize them. This is a real problem, especially in politically left-leaning bubbles. But if you are scared that you'd be called a fascist that easily, I suggest to maybe reflect on that a bit? (This is not a "If you're scared about being called a fascist then you are one" rhetorical question btw., I am genuine about this) | 19:23:38 |
| @piegames:matrix.org | In reply to @infinisil:matrix.org
How do we protect the individuals affected by the moderation action?
Justify decisions properly, ideally referencing the CoC. Make sure for the entire team to reach consensus on harder decisions and label it as such.
In the end, the moderation team holds a lot of power and is therefore also accountable for its actions. This also means that just like any other team it should be open for feedback to some degree. A decision log means nothing if can't be responded to.
This is not an answer to the question, sorry. The rest of the bullet point you quote is important | 19:24:41 |
| @piegames:matrix.org | Let me rephrase maybe: How do we document moderation cases without compromising the privacy and safety of the persons involved, and without becoming a public wall of shame? | 19:25:53 |
| infinisil | Ohh that was about the individuals being affected by the decision, not the individuals of the moderation team, I see | 19:26:13 |
| @piegames:matrix.org | In reply to @infinisil:matrix.org
Ohh that was about the individuals being affected by the decision, not the individuals of the moderation team, I see Yeah, that was my second point :) | 19:26:49 |
 @jonringer:matrix.org | I'm not scared of being called a fascist. People are free to have their own thoughts and opinions, whether they are justified or correct is a different concern. But I am concerned about how things quickly devolve to "that person is bigot, glad he's gone" | 19:27:06 |
| infinisil | In reply to @piegames:matrix.org
Let me rephrase maybe: How do we document moderation cases without compromising the privacy and safety of the persons involved, and without becoming a public wall of shame? Maybe remove old entries after a while, maybe at the same time as the people are unbanned again | 19:31:11 |
| infinisil | Git might be unsuitable for this | 19:31:29 |
 raitobezarius | (I don't see how does that address people archiving) | 19:33:56 |
| @piegames:matrix.org | An openly trans person is glad that an openly transphobic person is not in the community anymore. More news at eleven
(SCNR) | 19:34:12 |
| infinisil | raitobezarius: That fundamentally can't be addressed while having transparency | 19:34:40 |
| infinisil | I guess we could put a copyright notice on the page where this is hosted, such that people aren't legally allowed to distribute it | 19:35:13 |
| @jonringer:matrix.org | I'm actually okay with a bit of naming and shaming. Having your reputation tied with an identity (WITH RECOURSE), keeps people honest in a community.
Similar to how if your neighbor does you wrong, then your other neighbors will also be aware of that behavior. Having consequences of your actions is what keeps a society functioning. | 19:35:23 |
| infinisil | Such that if somebody does and it's an actual problem, the NixOS foundation could enforce it | 19:35:29 |
| @piegames:matrix.org | In reply to @raitobezarius:matrix.org
(I don't see how does that address people archiving) Not really part of the equation for now tbh | 19:35:51 |
| @jonringer:matrix.org | To what extent, I'm not sure. As mentioned, having a permanent stain is a high bar. | 19:35:55 |
| raitobezarius | In reply to @piegames:matrix.org
Not really part of the equation for now tbh hence () | 19:36:11 |
 @zimbatm:numtide.com | Yeah, horrible is a bit too strong as well. We had a few times the banned person writing "I was banned for <unjust reason>", and then clearly a bunch of other people believed them at face value. | 19:37:21 |
|  adamcstephens 🐝 left the room. | 19:39:01 |
 patka | Redacted or Malformed Event | 19:42:04 |
| @piegames:matrix.org | Redacted or Malformed Event | 19:42:26 |
| @jonringer:matrix.org |
openly transphobic person
Pretty sure he was anti-woke. Don't remember reading anything anti-trans
| 19:44:58 |
| @jonringer:matrix.org | *
openly transphobic person
Pretty sure he was anti-woke. Don't remember reading anything anti-trans
| 19:45:05 |
| @jonringer:matrix.org | I can think japanese work culture is toxic, without thinking that japanese people are toxic. | 19:45:48 |
| @jonringer:matrix.org | Again, I wasn't actively snooping around his personal blog either. | 19:46:35 |
| @piegames:matrix.org | In reply to @jonringer:matrix.org
openly transphobic person
Pretty sure he was anti-woke. Don't remember reading anything anti-trans
There is (or at least was) one page on his homepage with pretty transphobic quotes, although it was not linked to in any of the Nix discussions and AFAIK not relevant for his ban. This does not stop people of having seen it and having opinions on that | 19:47:37 |
| @piegames:matrix.org | Also this is not "snooping around", given that a blog on a home page is usually meant to be public by design. To me, snooping around would be something like going through years-old Twitter replies, which are very different in nature | 19:48:52 |
| @jonringer:matrix.org |
snoop
/sno͞op/
informal
verb
investigate or look around furtively in an attempt to find out something, especially information about someone's private affairs.
| 19:51:04 |
| @piegames:matrix.org | I stand by my point. A blog is personal, not private. | 19:51:35 |
