| 5 Nov 2021 |
 tomberek | My characterization of the recent controversial bans have been that someone felt that they were stuck in a corner, and then lashed out in a fight response. In modern society, we should control ourselves, but also attempt to understand. | 02:58:52 |
 Irenes | I think that's probably true, on all counts, although of course I don't know what's in people's hearts | 02:59:59 |
| tomberek | Okay, I think i have a much better understanding now. We still don't agree on the proper way forward, but it's a start. | 03:00:48 |
| Irenes | I'm really glad to hear that | 03:01:06 |
| Irenes | this was a lot for one night, but I look forward to continued discussion | 03:01:20 |
| tomberek | I peppered you with questions to dig into the issues. I specifically avoided trying to argue or counterattack. The intent was to find out how and why we come to different conclusions when looking at the same situation. Thank you for participating and being the questioned party. It helped provide some clarity. | 03:04:21 |
| Irenes | yes, I think you clearly showed a lot of restraint; I can imagine what you might say in response to a lot of the stuff I said | 03:05:58 |
| Irenes | I really do appreciate it a lot. | 03:06:20 |
 ash (it/its) 🏳️⚧️ | jonringer: i'd just like to say that i personally reached out to sandro on multiple occasions to try and help him understand where his conflicts with other community members are coming from along with offering more constructive ways to move forward | 03:19:59 |
| ash (it/its) 🏳️⚧️ | specifically one of those things is i offered multiple times to coauthor an rfc with him to address the formatting PRs he's been making in a broader sense | 03:20:58 |
| ash (it/its) 🏳️⚧️ | he refused me because he "didn't have the time" | 03:21:08 |
| ash (it/its) 🏳️⚧️ | i don't really appreciate the accusation that you're the only one who has tried to address these issues with empathy | 03:22:40 |
 jonringer | Do you remember when? because I'm talking prior to Jan 2021 | 03:25:09 |
| jonringer | Because that's when his nomination was declined for release manager. | 03:26:03 |
| ash (it/its) 🏳️⚧️ | i don't recall when that offer was specifically, but i've certainly reached out to him before january 2021 for other reasons | 03:26:16 |
| jonringer | This from ~9 months ago, so the details are a little fuzzy. But a lot of people (in IRC) were just trying to get him to do other things. Or were just coming off as dismissive. I don't know what went on in private. But after I had a chat, his reviews did seem more cordial, and there seemed to be a large contrast before jan 24 and post jan 24 in his mannerism.
| 03:42:13 |
| jonringer | * This from ~9 months ago, so the details are a little fuzzy. But a lot of people (in IRC) were just trying to get him to do other things. Or were just coming off as dismissive. I don't know what went on in private. But after I had a chat, his reviews did seem more cordial, and there seemed to be a large contrast before jan 24 and post jan 24 in his mannerisms. | 03:42:54 |
| jonringer | It's possible that he wasn't as receptive to others, but I just remember the difference was quite significant. | 03:43:38 |
| jonringer | And the chat logs that world brought up to demonstrate that he wasn't fit for RM, the rooms were definitely somewhere between dismissive to hostile toward. Hard to influence someone when they are on their back foot. | 03:47:06 |
| jonringer | * And the chat logs that world brought up to demonstrate that he wasn't fit for RM, the rooms were definitely somewhere between dismissive to hostile toward him. Hard to influence someone when they are on their back foot. | 03:47:22 |
| ash (it/its) 🏳️⚧️ | i agree with that | 03:49:12 |
| jonringer | Not saying that he is innocent. He has been dismissive at times. But I think it's an instance where some type of arbitration team could have done more "mentoring" than push back, and it would have been a much better resolution. | 03:50:18 |
| jonringer | * Not saying that he is innocent. He has been dismissive at times. He has been short with many people (myself included). But I think it's an instance where some type of arbitration team could have done more "mentoring" than push back, and it would have been a much better resolution. | 03:50:55 |
| ash (it/its) 🏳️⚧️ | yes, that is certainly one of the inspirations for the community team | 03:51:42 |
| ash (it/its) 🏳️⚧️ | (not just sandro specifically, but that is one of the cases it helps) | 03:52:21 |
| Irenes | I want to observe that with sandro's case, it only works if he's bought in to the arbitration. If it's someone he already distrusts reaching out as a peer, without authority, and he's already afraid of where such communication will lead, ... I won't say there's no way to make it work, but it's a lot harder. | 04:23:02 |
| Irenes | I don't see mediation as an exceptional thing, I think there are lots of situations where the need for it can arise | 04:23:18 |
| Irenes | and having a team with a track record of doing it successfully should eventually make it a little easier | 04:23:33 |
| Irenes | as far as getting that buy-in | 04:23:45 |
| jonringer | Sure, no one is going to receive "a stranger" well. I just wish I was made aware of it before having to tell him that although he was the only one to nominate or be nominated, that he was denied the role of release manager.
And that these issues (that I was not aware of outside of python package reviews) were going on for months.
I'm all in favor of having some type of moderation framework with actual people that can be approached, and that's the parts that I really like about 98. I just don't like the scope of moderation to also encompass behavior need to align to a "social norm" narrative. | 04:34:25 |
