| 4 Nov 2021 |
 Jonas Chevalier | joepie91 π³οΈβπ: we trust that you will tell us when that will happen | 15:37:56 |
 joepie91 π³οΈβπ | as that specific ideology exploits the well-known adage of "it takes an order of magnitude more effort to refute bullshit than to produce it" | 15:38:21 |
| Jonas Chevalier | we have to trust our community as well | 15:38:26 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | In reply to @zimbatm:numtide.com
joepie91 π³οΈβπ: we trust that you will tell us when that will happen I'm not entirely certain what "that" refers to here? | 15:38:53 |
| Jonas Chevalier | if you see alt-right ideology cropping up | 15:39:16 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | ah, right. I tend to call it out when I see it anyway :p | 15:39:38 |
 Domen KoΕΎar | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
for very similar reasons, I have instituted a blanket ban on alt-right ideology in PTIO - it's simply unworkable to defend against otherwise I wonder though, isn't that bigotry? | 15:40:00 |
| Jonas Chevalier | I don't think so | 15:40:35 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | Jonas Chevalier: if you are interested in learning how to spot it and the abusive discussion patterns, I can strongly recommend the "Alt-Right Playbook" - I don't generally recommend videos, but these are very information-dense and incredibly informative and well-explained | 15:40:57 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | (the tactics are not unique to the alt-right, but they are most actively exploited by them currently) | 15:41:15 |
| Jonas Chevalier | right now, since we're not under direct threat, I think it's better to avoid that language and the sense of impending doom and suspicion to each-other that comes with it | 15:42:02 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | In reply to @domenkozar:matrix.org
I wonder though, isn't that bigotry? it's not. "bigotry" and "exclusion" are two different things - the main determining factor is something along the lines of "is this one's fundamental identity, or is it a deliberate choice?" | 15:42:03 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | it's a bit more nuanced in reality (is 'being a murderer' always a choice? for example), but as a rule of thumb it works well enough to understand the distinction | 15:42:35 |
| Domen KoΕΎar | So it's allowed to be prejudiced based ona sum of identify but not on a sum of deliberate choices? | 15:43:46 |
 GallantChef | In my experience, it's the "if you don't subscribe to the belief of X then you're a bigot/racist/fascist/etc." that drives people to extremism, rather than rescues them from it | 15:43:55 |
| Jonas Chevalier | I think we all want to get back to a positive environment where we enjoy hacking on Nix. Being able to escape from the reality of the world is an important feature that I get from hacking on the project. | 15:43:57 |
| GallantChef | Enshrining something like that in writing would actually encourage extremism rather than combat it | 15:44:09 |
| Domen KoΕΎar | Our choices are limited by our own beliefs π€ | 15:44:38 |
| GallantChef | Further more, prescribing correct belief systems and incorrect ones isn't conducive towards forming a moderation team | 15:44:49 |
| GallantChef | This is a fundamentally non-partisan issue | 15:44:56 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | Domen KoΕΎar: in the case of alt-right ideology specifically, it is certainly a choice to express it outwardly - people generally have the option to not adhere to it, or at the very least treat it as "yes this is what I grew up in but I'm working on it", and so I consider it reasonable to hold people accountable for it. in the context of a decidedly harmful ideology, which means there's a threat to the community, the decision then becomes "this is not welcome here" | 15:45:11 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | one "metric" I often use is "does this person's presence in the community constitute a net positive or a net negative effect on that community?" | 15:45:52 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | folks who unabashedly adhere to alt-right ideology fall far on the "net negative" side of that spectrum almost without exception | 15:46:23 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | (almost always also in ways that are not directly connectable to "alt-right ideology", like a general unwillingness to consider other people's point of view in technical discussions for example) | 15:47:13 |
| GallantChef | I'm asking in good faith, just as you demonize the alt-right, can we demonize AuthLeft? | 15:47:22 |
| GallantChef | Fundamentally that's what the reaction against RFC0098 is, a reaction against AuthLeft | 15:47:49 |
| GallantChef | I want to see a moderate, non-partisan solution to moderation | 15:48:05 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | GallantChef: I am personally strongly opposed to the authoritarian "left" (though I do not really consider them "left" personally) - however, considering that they are not a dominant social or political force, they are pretty much irrelevant from a community management perspective | 15:48:06 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | this does not apply to the alt-right | 15:48:17 |
| GallantChef | That's interesting | 15:48:29 |
