 | RFC 98 Chat | 52 Members |
| Discussion on RFC 98 [Community Team] https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/98 | 24 Servers |
| RFC 98 Chat | 52 Members |
| Discussion on RFC 98 [Community Team] https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/98 | 24 Servers |
| Sender | Message | Time |
|---|---|---|
| 4 Nov 2021 | ||
 jonringer | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.townWe have other words like discrimination | 17:40:34 |
| jonringer | and it's in RFC 114 | 17:40:47 |
 joepie91 🏳️🌈 | jonringer: I have had people arguing almost word-for-word at me what you are saying about 'bigotry', but about 'discrimination' :) | 17:41:15 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | I don't think that a choice between 'bigotry' or 'discrimination' is going to matter for resolving this definition thing | 17:41:54 |
 tomberek | End goal: improve Nix based technology. That is the end goal. There may be intermediate or necessary things along the way, but the "Nix community" should view Nix as the end goal. Seems almost tautological. The end goal is not necessarily a "diverse community". It's probably helpful and beneficial, but not the end goal. | 17:43:46 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | tomberek: I'm deliberately scoping the discussion to "healty community" as the end goal, to avoid tangents back into "the community should only be about tech, not politics" | 17:44:27 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | obviously the success of the project is the final goal | 17:44:37 |
| tomberek | Okay, thanks. | 17:44:49 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | but I think that there is general agreement that a healthy community is a prerequisite for that, and also a fair amount of agreement that a diverse community is important to keep it healthy | 17:45:02 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | so I kind of considered that as agreed-upon :p | 17:45:22 |
 abathur | I realize it's tedious, but is it acceptable/feasible to unpack some of these contested terms into simpler language to defuse those tangents | 17:45:53 |
 Jonas Chevalier | what I care about as the end goal, is diversity in the sense that a maximum of people can participate and have a good experience around nix, getting shit done, sharing their enjoyment of technology. I don't care what you are, as long as you have a sentient brain and we can communicate effectively. I disagree that a necessary premise for that diversity is to first cut people along attributes of immutable characteristics. This in itself is the root cause of most of the conflict and issues we have. But also, if you are a minority and don't feel welcome, then there is a problem that needs to be addressed. Harassment is not tolerable. I'm happy to discuss any issues people might have. But also, if you cannot tolerate that people have different viewpoints of the world, you are not welcome either. And don't inject politics in everything you do, it's insufferable. Something like that | 17:46:51 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | (also, I wouldn't be here discussing this to begin with if I didn't care about the success of NixOS as a project - it would be much easier to avoid this entire discussion and just stick around in communities that have already ensured their long-term health) | 17:47:17 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | (I assume the same is true for everyone else in this discussion) | 17:47:34 |
| Jonas Chevalier | I think the best outcome we could achieve is to create an island of peace and calm, where people with different ideologies can come together and share something positive, and realize that we're all humans in the end. I know, this is a big ask :) | 17:51:46 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | Jonas Chevalier: I think we generally agree on goals and values, but I feel like you're missing some causal links here - if your goal is to allow 'a maximum of people to participate', then that amount of people is not only necessarily going to include people from many diverse backgrounds, but the software also needs to be representative of people with those diverse backgrounds, and be designed in such a way that it fits in their life. I really, really do not like phrasing things like this, but it's the only way I can think of right now to produce an obvious example: "rich white cishet guys in the US and europe" have a specific set of circumstances in life due to their status in society, that is not shared by, say, a trans person or a black person in the US. those people will have different issues in life to contend with because they experience society differently (eg. a general looming threat of their environment), and as a result they will also have different needs from the software that they use, different concerns, and so on. if we want to maximize both the usefulness of and participation in Nix(OS) as a project, then we need to account for those diverse experiences of life, and ensure that the community is a welcoming and safe place for them to contribute, and this lands you back at eg. the "not tolerating bigotry" point. or in less words: it would be nice if people of different backgrounds and identities had comparable experiences in society, but the reality is that they do not, and so an inclusive community needs to account and compensate for that, and not just be "colorblind" or "neutral" | 17:55:34 |
| Jonas Chevalier | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.townI think that's assuming that people are monolithic, and already giving up on the group deemed "bad". Of course I agree that if people are antagonistic and causing unnecessary outrage, then they should go. | 17:56:03 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | Jonas Chevalier: as I've already stated before, I do not believe that anyone is 'unfixable' or 'fundamentally bad'. but to put it in explicit terms, as long as one adheres to and expresses an oppressive ideology, they are a threat to a (potential) subset of the community | 17:57:15 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | those people have the choice to not follow that oppressive ideology, and be welcomed back into the community | 17:57:38 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | oh, to be clear: with "expresses an oppressive ideology" I do not mean "talking about politics" | 17:59:32 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | it is generally far, far more subtle than that. | 17:59:43 |
| Jonas Chevalier | again, this is a very specific view on diversity | 17:59:49 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | correct. | 17:59:56 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | I think pretty much all of the views I've expressed here have been very specific :) | 18:00:12 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | as I've mentioned, I think all the cards should be put on the table | 18:00:40 |
| Jonas Chevalier | again, this is very reminiscent of the American culture war | 18:03:14 |
| Jonas Chevalier | it's painting a picture where there are some types of marginalized groups, that need special protections, across very specific lines | 18:04:10 |
| Jonas Chevalier | nobody is talking about mentally disabled people for example | 18:04:31 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | that's because there are. and I reject the framing of a 'culture war', which implies this is some sort of passing fad. in reality, it's just a long history of systemic social issues coming to a head and finally getting addressed | 18:05:00 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | In reply to @zimbatm:numtide.comI did earlier in this discussion, actually | 18:05:21 |