| 4 Nov 2021 |
 jonringer | however, it seems that graham is usually the one to be bat phoned | 16:36:56 |
 joepie91 🏳️🌈 | exactly | 16:37:00 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | on paper we have multiple people, but in practice it's mainly graham | 16:37:09 |
| jonringer | yea, Jonas Chevalier and I both believe that having a moderation team, and a sustainable way to contact them are good things. | 16:37:46 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | In reply to @abathur:matrix.org
It's a bit oblique to this conversation, but I've wondered as this spools out if the RFC process doesn't help ensure part of this trouble in contentious areas by expecting a large up-front investment in staking out (and thus having to defend) a vision for something I think that generally speaking smaller RFCs are better in a lot of cases, but that on this specific topic it doesn't matter; building up a moderation model like this, especially one that structurally diverges from the world in which it exists (namely: being non-hierarchical), requires whole-system analysis | 16:38:20 |
 abathur | not necessarily saying that you don't need broad analysis and synthesis | 16:39:30 |
| abathur | but more that if you start with a document where some nontrivial percent of the community can find something that makes them uncomfortable, the discourse around the effort can end up hopelessly poisoned regardless of how ready the authors are to negotiate and address concerns | 16:41:40 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | In reply to @zimbatm:numtide.com
maybe we should ask him what he wants :p eelco already seems perpetually busy, I'm not sure it's a good idea to expect them to define the end goal for something that they have not shown active interest in :p | 16:41:47 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | especially as it's not clear what the benefit of doing so would be; it can't really be argued to 'represent the community', and so whatever the answer ends up being, it would essentially be an authoritarian decision | 16:42:39 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | it seems more fruitful for me to discuss this among the community, get people aligned on this, understand each other's viewpoints, and build something durable that as many people as possible feel represented by | 16:43:14 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | In reply to @abathur:matrix.org
but more that if you start with a document where some nontrivial percent of the community can find something that makes them uncomfortable, the discourse around the effort can end up hopelessly poisoned regardless of how ready the authors are to negotiate and address concerns honestly, I agree with the authors here; this is 'necessary conflict'. I'm sure it would be easier to introduce things piecemeal, but IME usually piecemeal processes tend to garner more approval mainly because most people involved do not have the full picture of the end goal and each individual piece looks fine - even if they would disagree with the whole thing that it results in. I think it's better to have all the cards on the table | 16:45:32 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | also because addressing concerns about one part may well resolve issues with another part indirectly | 16:46:08 |
 Jonas Chevalier | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
it seems more fruitful for me to discuss this among the community, get people aligned on this, understand each other's viewpoints, and build something durable that as many people as possible feel represented by just to be clear; the people in this channel don't represent the community at large. We're basically making a decision for everyone, which is part of the problem. | 16:46:42 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | I mean, that is what the RFC process is for; to ask for input from the broader community (and I imagine that's why some people objected to creating this room) | 16:47:16 |
| Jonas Chevalier | we're going a bit back to the notion of contributor or "voting member" | 16:47:58 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | but I don't see the conversation here as 'making decisions', but rather as a way to resolve misunderstandings and disagreements through a higher-bandwidth medium, so that the RFC discussion on github can be returned to with a better shared model of the goals and mechanisms | 16:48:02 |
| Jonas Chevalier | * we're going a bit back to the notion of contributor or "voting member" (the RFC process itself isn't entirely democratic) | 16:49:00 |
| Jonas Chevalier | I mean, hopefully the outcome will be also satisfactory to the public at large | 16:51:13 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | I hope so, too. I'm not sure you can do much more than having an open public discussion and preventing trolling or other disruptive tactics | 16:52:28 |
| Jonas Chevalier | * I mean, hopefully the outcome will be also satisfactory to the public at large (and the minority groups) | 16:52:34 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | not every single community member will care about this topic, after all, or those that do may trust that someone else sorts it out | 16:52:51 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | I would hope that those who do care about getting involved in the conversation, find their way to the RFC or here | 16:53:31 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | jonringer: Jonas Chevalier: also, just to be sure I didn't miss anything, were there any concerns you've raised that I didn't respond to yet? | 16:56:35 |
| Jonas Chevalier | yeah I'm out of energy for today | 17:00:51 |
| Jonas Chevalier | ideally the next step would be to incorporate all of this discussion into the RFC somehow, or create a new one | 17:01:38 |
| Jonas Chevalier | /cc Irenes and ash (it/its) 🏳️⚧️ | 17:02:16 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | or a comment on the github issue anyway | 17:03:06 |
| jonringer | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
jonringer: Jonas Chevalier: also, just to be sure I didn't miss anything, were there any concerns you've raised that I didn't respond to yet? I'm trying to focus on RFC 114, as this discussion won't have much wait during the RFCSC meetings | 17:07:08 |
| jonringer | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
jonringer: Jonas Chevalier: also, just to be sure I didn't miss anything, were there any concerns you've raised that I didn't respond to yet? * I'm trying to focus on RFC 114, as this discussion won't have much weight during the RFCSC meetings | 17:07:15 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | jonringer: not sure I understand. in the sense of incorporating the things discussed here into RFC 114, you mean? | 17:08:20 |
