4 Nov 2021 |
joepie91 π³οΈβπ | how do you mean? | 14:29:01 |
Jonas Chevalier | I want to start this again, but from a place where we're open that we don't have all the answers | 14:29:58 |
Jonas Chevalier | I certainly don't have all the answers | 14:30:33 |
joepie91 π³οΈβπ | neither do I; I already mentioned one such case actually, people who cannot be empathic (eg. because of some sort of mental health condition) | 14:30:59 |
joepie91 π³οΈβπ | that is a complicated thing where there is no clear good answer, because on the one hand you cannot allow one person to disrupt an entire community, but on the other hand it is likely a chronic condition and so on a societal scale they would get excluded from everywhere | 14:31:41 |
tomberek | Disrupt the community? | 14:32:15 |
joepie91 π³οΈβπ | * that is a complicated thing where there is no clear good answer, because on the one hand you cannot allow one person to disrupt an entire community, but on the other hand it is likely a chronic condition and so on a societal scale they would get excluded from everywhere, which is also undesirable | 14:32:43 |
Jonas Chevalier | generally speaking, my impression is that we can get quite far by acknowledging that we have differences. | 14:33:22 |
Jonas Chevalier | and by talking to people | 14:34:52 |
joepie91 π³οΈβπ | Jonas Chevalier: I agree with that in general, but with the caveat that this only applies when everybody involved is acting in good faith | 14:35:15 |
joepie91 π³οΈβπ | which is usually the case, but it often only takes one person who isn't acting in good faith to make things go bad very quickly | 14:35:33 |
Jonas Chevalier | even the people above that were labelled toxic, are just people. behind the words are legitimate fears | 14:35:49 |
Jonas Chevalier | we have to acknowledge that, and also john's concerns | 14:36:50 |
Jan Tojnar | I guess we (libertarian types) have the tendency to always extrapolate the actions to the worst case scenario, even though we might be completely in agreement on specifics with the todayβs well-meaning left, we do not know who will come after them. | 14:36:56 |
tomberek | You are suggesting large disruptions are necessary to our community norms, in order to prevent large disruptions. Some are seeing this conversation as a disruption, one in which there has not been a lot of empathetic behavior, impacting newcomers. What gives this disruption the moral high ground to occur and not others? | 14:37:00 |
GallantChef | The belief of righteousness is what justifies it, hence why our friend has almost nothing that they're uncertain about | 14:37:31 |
GallantChef | When you're arguing from a position of already being correct, it's difficult to lose an argument | 14:37:46 |
joepie91 π³οΈβπ | Jonas Chevalier: I'm certainly aware of that - I don't think most people know this about me, but I have a long long history of helping people to 'deradicalize', functioning as an (albeit limited) support network for people trying to get out of abusive right-extremist communities and the like, mediating between them and communities they have been removed from in the past, and so on. but none of that can work until the person in question shows themselves open to genuine good-faith conversation | 14:38:30 |
joepie91 π³οΈβπ | I also do not describe to the view of toxic people being fundamentally, immutably toxic | 14:39:12 |
joepie91 π³οΈβπ | * I also do not subscribe to the view of toxic people being fundamentally, immutably toxic | 14:39:19 |
joepie91 π³οΈβπ | however: that does not change that I don't hesitate to take moderation actions to protect a broader community either | 14:39:41 |
GallantChef | Perhaps your view is related to your vocation, and by dealing with extremists, you perceive extremism in places where perhaps there isn't any. That's me giving you the benefit of the doubt | 14:39:47 |
joepie91 π³οΈβπ | nor does it change that I am very explicit about calling out harmful behaviour | 14:39:53 |
Jonas Chevalier | joepie91 π³οΈβπ: I also get a sense that your position are generally strongly held, it doesn't leave a lot of room for people to be wrong | 14:40:36 |
joepie91 π³οΈβπ | In reply to @gallantchef:matrix.foxears.life Perhaps your view is related to your vocation, and by dealing with extremists, you perceive extremism in places where perhaps there isn't any. That's me giving you the benefit of the doubt this is actually almost right; but rather than there "not being any extremism", it's more that I know the extremism well enough to recognize both the broader fallout that comes from it, and the roads that lead to it | 14:41:03 |
joepie91 π³οΈβπ | and at that stage it is not extremism, correct | 14:41:17 |
joepie91 π³οΈβπ | but it is still often harmful, and when left unchecked can very rapidly become extremism | 14:41:30 |
Jonas Chevalier | one thing I noticed with the Internet is that each group, left to their own device, and with nobody to contradict them, it going to become more extreme in their position | 14:42:39 |
jonringer | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town I mean, I can think of at least one person in the NixOS community (or well, previously in the NixOS community) who was decidedly peddling fascist ideology and who went off the deep end during the freenode drama I would love to see some logs | 14:43:02 |
Jonas Chevalier | this is true both for the left and the right, and the religious people, and whatever | 14:43:11 |