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RFC 98 Chat

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Discussion on RFC 98 [Community Team] https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/9824 Servers

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4 Nov 2021
@joepie91:pixie.townjoepie91 πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆhow do you mean?14:29:01
@zimbatm:numtide.comJonas ChevalierI want to start this again, but from a place where we're open that we don't have all the answers14:29:58
@zimbatm:numtide.comJonas ChevalierI certainly don't have all the answers14:30:33
@joepie91:pixie.townjoepie91 πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆ neither do I; I already mentioned one such case actually, people who cannot be empathic (eg. because of some sort of mental health condition) 14:30:59
@joepie91:pixie.townjoepie91 πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆ that is a complicated thing where there is no clear good answer, because on the one hand you cannot allow one person to disrupt an entire community, but on the other hand it is likely a chronic condition and so on a societal scale they would get excluded from everywhere 14:31:41
@tomberek:matrix.orgtomberekDisrupt the community?14:32:15
@joepie91:pixie.townjoepie91 πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆ * that is a complicated thing where there is no clear good answer, because on the one hand you cannot allow one person to disrupt an entire community, but on the other hand it is likely a chronic condition and so on a societal scale they would get excluded from everywhere, which is also undesirable 14:32:43
@zimbatm:numtide.comJonas Chevaliergenerally speaking, my impression is that we can get quite far by acknowledging that we have differences.14:33:22
@zimbatm:numtide.comJonas Chevalierand by talking to people14:34:52
@joepie91:pixie.townjoepie91 πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆ Jonas Chevalier: I agree with that in general, but with the caveat that this only applies when everybody involved is acting in good faith 14:35:15
@joepie91:pixie.townjoepie91 πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆ which is usually the case, but it often only takes one person who isn't acting in good faith to make things go bad very quickly 14:35:33
@zimbatm:numtide.comJonas Chevaliereven the people above that were labelled toxic, are just people. behind the words are legitimate fears14:35:49
@zimbatm:numtide.comJonas Chevalierwe have to acknowledge that, and also john's concerns14:36:50
@jtojnar:matrix.orgJan TojnarI guess we (libertarian types) have the tendency to always extrapolate the actions to the worst case scenario, even though we might be completely in agreement on specifics with the today’s well-meaning left, we do not know who will come after them.14:36:56
@tomberek:matrix.orgtomberekYou are suggesting large disruptions are necessary to our community norms, in order to prevent large disruptions. Some are seeing this conversation as a disruption, one in which there has not been a lot of empathetic behavior, impacting newcomers. What gives this disruption the moral high ground to occur and not others?14:37:00
@gallantchef:matrix.foxears.lifeGallantChefThe belief of righteousness is what justifies it, hence why our friend has almost nothing that they're uncertain about 14:37:31
@gallantchef:matrix.foxears.lifeGallantChefWhen you're arguing from a position of already being correct, it's difficult to lose an argument14:37:46
@joepie91:pixie.townjoepie91 πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆ Jonas Chevalier: I'm certainly aware of that - I don't think most people know this about me, but I have a long long history of helping people to 'deradicalize', functioning as an (albeit limited) support network for people trying to get out of abusive right-extremist communities and the like, mediating between them and communities they have been removed from in the past, and so on. but none of that can work until the person in question shows themselves open to genuine good-faith conversation 14:38:30
@joepie91:pixie.townjoepie91 πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆ I also do not describe to the view of toxic people being fundamentally, immutably toxic 14:39:12
@joepie91:pixie.townjoepie91 πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆ * I also do not subscribe to the view of toxic people being fundamentally, immutably toxic 14:39:19
@joepie91:pixie.townjoepie91 πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆhowever: that does not change that I don't hesitate to take moderation actions to protect a broader community either14:39:41
@gallantchef:matrix.foxears.lifeGallantChefPerhaps your view is related to your vocation, and by dealing with extremists, you perceive extremism in places where perhaps there isn't any. That's me giving you the benefit of the doubt 14:39:47
@joepie91:pixie.townjoepie91 πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆnor does it change that I am very explicit about calling out harmful behaviour14:39:53
@zimbatm:numtide.comJonas Chevalier joepie91 πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆ: I also get a sense that your position are generally strongly held, it doesn't leave a lot of room for people to be wrong 14:40:36
@joepie91:pixie.townjoepie91 πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆ
In reply to @gallantchef:matrix.foxears.life
Perhaps your view is related to your vocation, and by dealing with extremists, you perceive extremism in places where perhaps there isn't any. That's me giving you the benefit of the doubt
this is actually almost right; but rather than there "not being any extremism", it's more that I know the extremism well enough to recognize both the broader fallout that comes from it, and the roads that lead to it
14:41:03
@joepie91:pixie.townjoepie91 πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆand at that stage it is not extremism, correct14:41:17
@joepie91:pixie.townjoepie91 πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆ but it is still often harmful, and when left unchecked can very rapidly become extremism 14:41:30
@zimbatm:numtide.comJonas Chevalierone thing I noticed with the Internet is that each group, left to their own device, and with nobody to contradict them, it going to become more extreme in their position14:42:39
@jonringer:matrix.orgjonringer
In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
I mean, I can think of at least one person in the NixOS community (or well, previously in the NixOS community) who was decidedly peddling fascist ideology and who went off the deep end during the freenode drama
I would love to see some logs
14:43:02
@zimbatm:numtide.comJonas Chevalierthis is true both for the left and the right, and the religious people, and whatever14:43:11

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