| 24 Nov 2021 |
 @zimbatm:numtide.com | * it's a bit the same argument some cops uses in movies, to justify not following the law. The bad guys are not following the law, and it's just a hindrance to true justice. | 11:17:28 |
 joepie91 🏳️🌈 | those are really not comparable for multiple reasons; 1) this is a community, not a nation state (to which fuzzy moderation just can't scale for social reasons), and 2) there is no real accountability to the population in government policing systems, despite what it sometimes says on paper | 11:18:41 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | the problem with fuzzy judgments by cops are not the fuzzy judgments, but the outsized impact that 'getting it wrong' has on society | 11:19:33 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | because of their specific position and circumstances | 11:19:56 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | I have no problem with cops making fuzzy judgments for non-punitive reasons, for example, like trying to decide whether someone needs assistance (in the countries where that actually is a thing, that is...) | 11:20:40 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | I don't really want to go too deep into the political weeds here, but basically the entire field of law exists to answer the question of "fuck, subjective judgment doesn't work at this scale. how do we deal with that?" | 11:22:00 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | yeah I didn't mean to open a pandora box. But... I'm pretty sure the cop would use all of your arguments :p | 11:25:54 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | ttyl, lunch time! | 11:26:12 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | I think that you'd be surprised :) there are plenty of cops who full well realize their special position in society and how that warrants more care and constraints. unfortunately they tend not to stay cops for very long... | 11:33:56 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | bon appetit! | 11:34:07 |
 @ryblade:matrix.org | i didn't have time to go over everything that had transpired since i was last here, but one thing in particular stood out to me that i'd like to address. i'm very concerned about the idea of "enforcing cultural norms". this is an international community, which "culture" of the thousands that are represented by our community is going to be selected as the "superior" one? that just seems like an impossible task to pull off without severely offending someone, which is the opposite of what we are trying to achieve, no? | 12:47:25 |
| @ryblade:matrix.org | that's the one bit of language that really worried me from the beginning. based on my age, background, parents and geographic location, tolerating different cultures is the "cultural norm" i was raised on, not picking one out and holding above all others as somehow morally superior. i was taught to consider the circumstances in which others grew up, and how that can mold and shape their own morality, which may look different to my own, but isn't in all cases inferior. for example, lots of cultures haven't gone green. a person with less global knowledge may see them as filthy polluters, whereas a broader understanding of the issue shows that they literally just can't afford things like solar arrays and desalination plants, and neither could we until we lifted ourselves up economically. | 12:52:07 |
| @ryblade:matrix.org | obviously we're not ruling on the issue of carbon footprints among our project, but i picked an example outside the scope of nixos on purpose. | 12:53:35 |
| @ryblade:matrix.org | * that's the one bit of language that really worried me from the beginning. based on my age, background, parents and geographic location, tolerating different cultures is the "cultural norm" i was raised on, not picking one out and holding above all others as somehow morally superior. i was taught to consider the circumstances in which others grew up, and how that can mold and shape their own morality, which may look different to my own, but isn't in all cases inferior. for example, lots of cultures haven't gone green. a person with less global knowledge may see them as filthy polluters, whereas a broader understanding of the issue shows that they literally just can't afford things like solar arrays and desalination plants, and neither could the country i live in until we lifted ourselves up economically. | 12:55:11 |
| @ryblade:matrix.org | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
I don't really want to go too deep into the political weeds here, but basically the entire field of law exists to answer the question of "fuck, subjective judgment doesn't work at this scale. how do we deal with that?" one part of law that's not often considered, but is often the solution, is non-enforcement. not every problem needs an authoritarian solution. this is why i encourage others to block. it's a personal, individual solution that doesn't have nearly as large an effect on the surrounding community. as for your concern that blocked people are "shouting in a void", i fail to see how that is possible unless the person blocked is blocked by everybody, which just won't happen unless a person's spamming casino links. heck, on the off chance that someone is blocked by everybody, great! no need for the mods to ban, there's already an equivalent solution in place! | 13:04:15 |
| @ryblade:matrix.org | i've observed lately that many people on the internet have been far too quick to want hierarchical, top-down solutions to problems that may not even exist on such a scale that they're designed to prevent. maybe i'm too new here, but i just don't see hate all around me in the nixos community, it really feels like we're putting the cart before the horse, as if we're preparing ourselves for a war that may never break out. | 13:06:03 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | "shouting in a void" was my point. What I wanted mean is that it can lead to situations where somebody says something, and is wondering why no reply is coming back. | 13:07:32 |
| @ryblade:matrix.org | again, that won't happen unless everybody is blocking that person. there will always, presumably, be someone who doesn't have that person blocked. | 13:08:14 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | you're not the first one to react on "enforcing cultural norms". I think the meaning was to set acceptable behavior boundaries, "cultural" is not precise enough for that | 13:08:32 |
| @ryblade:matrix.org | if you blocked me, you wouldn't be responding to me, but others still would. also, if i find myself blocked by almost the whole channel, and left wondering why... tough cookies? | 13:08:50 |
| @ryblade:matrix.org | perhaps that gives me time to reflect? | 13:09:03 |
| @ryblade:matrix.org | i mean, if you're blocked by a whole bunch of people, that probably means you did something wrong enough to warrant it. nobody just goes around blocking everybody for no reason. | 13:09:32 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | I'm not saying that blocking is a bad thing in itself. It was more of a reflection on the potential side-effects. | 13:09:54 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | I think we agree that blocking can be a useful tool | 13:10:11 |
| @ryblade:matrix.org | a side-effect that only exists between blocker and blockee. if a mod unilaterally bans a person, NOBODY gets to see what that person has to say, which is worse. | 13:10:53 |
| @ryblade:matrix.org | and this is a side-effect we already contend with considering we are on platforms that already support it, so it's a bit too late to tackle that philosophical conundrum | 13:11:57 |
| @ryblade:matrix.org | * and this is a side-effect we already contend with considering we are on platforms that already support blocking, so it's a bit too late to tackle that philosophical conundrum | 13:12:11 |
| @ryblade:matrix.org | i've got a few people on my blocklist already and i'm laughing at the idea of them being all confused and "WHY WON'T YOU FIGHT ME ARRGHGAHDFSHFKSDHF" | 13:12:54 |
| @ryblade:matrix.org | because i will fight them if i don't block them, which is bad for all of us. | 13:13:51 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | the point I was making was related to conflict resolution, which is related but separate from moderation | 13:14:08 |
