24 Nov 2021 |
Irenes | I get that we need to formalize stuff more and that's fine, but that's already the core idea of it | 10:36:19 |
@zimbatm:numtide.com | maybe it takes more than one RFC to get this right | 10:37:27 |
joepie91 🏳️🌈 | Jonas Chevalier: one other aspect that I believe is important if we want de-escalation to be an integral part of the community culture, is that people truly realize that everybody they talk to has their own complex life and background and experiences, experiences that may be difficult to convey to someone else but are no less true because of that.
this kind of ties into "assume good faith", but I think it's something that needs to be highlighted explicitly, because many people (in general, not specific to NixOS) have a tendency of treating other people in chatrooms almost like faceless bots, someone whose entire personality and life consists only of that which they can observe externally, and those external behaviours are viewed only in the context of their own personal experiences.
and that leads to de-escalation failures in many cases; ranging from assumptions of "they hold bigoted views so they must be intentionally malicious" to "they say their life is so much harder but I think they're just seeking attention" to, in the worse cases, "you're just mentally ill". all because people are not really willing or prepared to consider that someone may legitimately arrive at a different conclusion than them just because they are experiencing the world from a different perspective
| 10:37:35 |
@zimbatm:numtide.com | we should offer meditation courses as part of the training :D | 10:38:24 |
joepie91 🏳️🌈 | I assume you mean mediation courses, not meditation? :p | 10:38:48 |
joepie91 🏳️🌈 | in all seriousness, that is not a terrible idea | 10:39:06 |
@zimbatm:numtide.com | I was joking halfly, meditation helps observing the world and diminish personal attack feelings | 10:40:47 |
joepie91 🏳️🌈 | while I agree in principle, I think it has too much cultural baggage to be a central dependency of the community management approach | 10:41:27 |
joepie91 🏳️🌈 | which is not to say that we can't borrow some ideas from it | 10:41:58 |
@zimbatm:numtide.com | I agree, but it would be fun to see another technical community being centered around it | 10:42:14 |
@zimbatm:numtide.com | (with my weird definition of fun :p) | 10:42:29 |
joepie91 🏳️🌈 | one suggestion that I sometimes make to people in emotional distress is somewhat related: grab a stopwatch, and set yourself a 1 minute delay for every message you send | 10:42:45 |
joepie91 🏳️🌈 | just, when you read something, wait for the stopwatch to expire, and only then write your reply | 10:43:01 |
joepie91 🏳️🌈 | it's a very simple no-thought-required trick, just always one minute, and it helps a lot for people to collect their thoughts and respond less impulsively | 10:43:27 |
@zimbatm:numtide.com | yeah that seems useful | 10:44:07 |
joepie91 🏳️🌈 | it's also a much easier sell than 'meditation' because it looks purely pragmatic | 10:44:10 |
joepie91 🏳️🌈 | while still achieving pretty similar results | 10:44:27 |
@zimbatm:numtide.com | meditation also takes much more time investment. It takes a while for the benefits to kick in. | 10:44:44 |
joepie91 🏳️🌈 | right | 10:44:55 |
| * joepie91 🏳️🌈 is now thinking about mediation courses | 10:45:19 |
@zimbatm:numtide.com | similarly, I don't know that technically-minded people are necessarily ready to invest time to learn about leadership and moderation | 10:45:58 |
joepie91 🏳️🌈 | oh, they are not, that is why we have so many moderation issues in tech | 10:46:16 |
joepie91 🏳️🌈 | it's not a part of the culture, yet | 10:46:22 |
joepie91 🏳️🌈 | in the same way that 'communication' in general isn't | 10:46:30 |
@zimbatm:numtide.com | it's because the value is not immediately apparent | 10:46:51 |
joepie91 🏳️🌈 | that is probably a part of it, but there's another factor that I think should not be underestimated: the amount of people who went into computers because "computers are much easier to deal with than people" | 10:47:23 |
@zimbatm:numtide.com | I think we can get quite far by setting up a team and try some of these things out, without the enforcement side | 10:47:24 |
@zimbatm:numtide.com | I'm definitely one of those people :) | 10:47:47 |
@zimbatm:numtide.com | * I think we can get quite far by setting up a team and try some of these things out, without the enforcement side (not saying we don't need the RFC) | 10:48:20 |
joepie91 🏳️🌈 | many people in tech communities are, but that has also shaped the culture around tech to consider 'dealing with humans' optional, which has a lot of ramifications not just in terms of moderation, but also project management, etc. | 10:48:23 |