| 4 Nov 2021 |
 Jonas Chevalier | this is the core of the disagreement I feel | 17:31:28 |
| Jonas Chevalier | it comes down to how we view diversity, and what form it will take | 17:31:52 |
 joepie91 🏳️🌈 | but to be clear, these specifically drawn lines are chosen to maximize diversity in a 'quantifiable' sense | 17:32:14 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | hold on, I am not wording this well | 17:32:36 |
| Jonas Chevalier | whenever you say things like that, it feels exactly what people would denounce of being alt-left | 17:32:57 |
| Jonas Chevalier | I think this is the last know to untie | 17:33:26 |
| Jonas Chevalier | * I think this is the last knot to untie | 17:33:30 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | so let's try defining that again:
what I care about as the end goal, is diversity in the sense that the community is a welcoming and productive place for people of as many different backgrounds, experiences, worldviews, and identities as possible.
what I see as an indispensable part of that, and this is where my lines are drawn, is not tolerating ideologies and behaviour which actively aim to oppose (rather than advance) that goal - and that includes bigotry, and a couple of other ideologies that are founded specifically on exclusion of anyone outside of a very specific identity
| 17:36:30 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | you cannot have a functioning community (at scale) with both diversity and 'anti-diverse' ideology in coexistence, so one needs to go; and my choice for what needs to go is very definitively on the side of 'anti-diverse ideology' | 17:38:00 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | my 'agenda', if you want to call it that, is that | 17:38:30 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | (and I hope that it's clear that "anti-diverse" does not include "anti-anti-diverse" as a subset) | 17:39:17 |
 jonringer | At least in the US, a "bigot" is already just used as a "someone who doesn't agree with me" term | 17:39:22 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | that is not the definition that I am using | 17:39:41 |
| jonringer | I know this is an international community. But "fascism" has also been diluted in a similar fasion | 17:40:00 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | but I've also not found that definition to be widespread in moderation circles | 17:40:05 |
| jonringer | * I know this is an international community. But "fascism" has also been diluted in a similar fashion | 17:40:12 |
| jonringer | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
but I've also not found that definition to be widespread in moderation circles We have other words like discrimination | 17:40:34 |
| jonringer | and it's in RFC 114 | 17:40:47 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | jonringer: I have had people arguing almost word-for-word at me what you are saying about 'bigotry', but about 'discrimination' :) | 17:41:15 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | I don't think that a choice between 'bigotry' or 'discrimination' is going to matter for resolving this definition thing | 17:41:54 |
 tomberek | End goal: improve Nix based technology. That is the end goal. There may be intermediate or necessary things along the way, but the "Nix community" should view Nix as the end goal. Seems almost tautological. The end goal is not necessarily a "diverse community". It's probably helpful and beneficial, but not the end goal. | 17:43:46 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | tomberek: I'm deliberately scoping the discussion to "healty community" as the end goal, to avoid tangents back into "the community should only be about tech, not politics" | 17:44:27 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | obviously the success of the project is the final goal | 17:44:37 |
| tomberek | Okay, thanks. | 17:44:49 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | but I think that there is general agreement that a healthy community is a prerequisite for that, and also a fair amount of agreement that a diverse community is important to keep it healthy | 17:45:02 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | so I kind of considered that as agreed-upon :p | 17:45:22 |
 abathur | I realize it's tedious, but is it acceptable/feasible to unpack some of these contested terms into simpler language to defuse those tangents | 17:45:53 |
| Jonas Chevalier | what I care about as the end goal, is diversity in the sense that a maximum of people can participate and have a good experience around nix, getting shit done, sharing their enjoyment of technology. I don't care what you are, as long as you have a sentient brain and we can communicate effectively.
I disagree that a necessary premise for that diversity is to first cut people along attributes of immutable characteristics. This in itself is the root cause of most of the conflict and issues we have.
But also, if you are a minority and don't feel welcome, then there is a problem that needs to be addressed. Harassment is not tolerable. I'm happy to discuss any issues people might have.
But also, if you cannot tolerate that people have different viewpoints of the world, you are not welcome either. And don't inject politics in everything you do, it's insufferable.
Something like that | 17:46:51 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | (also, I wouldn't be here discussing this to begin with if I didn't care about the success of NixOS as a project - it would be much easier to avoid this entire discussion and just stick around in communities that have already ensured their long-term health) | 17:47:17 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | (I assume the same is true for everyone else in this discussion) | 17:47:34 |
