| 4 Nov 2021 |
 joepie91 π³οΈβπ | In reply to @zimbatm:numtide.com
joepie91 π³οΈβπ: we trust that you will tell us when that will happen I'm not entirely certain what "that" refers to here? | 15:38:53 |
 Jonas Chevalier | if you see alt-right ideology cropping up | 15:39:16 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | ah, right. I tend to call it out when I see it anyway :p | 15:39:38 |
 Domen KoΕΎar | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
for very similar reasons, I have instituted a blanket ban on alt-right ideology in PTIO - it's simply unworkable to defend against otherwise I wonder though, isn't that bigotry? | 15:40:00 |
| Jonas Chevalier | I don't think so | 15:40:35 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | Jonas Chevalier: if you are interested in learning how to spot it and the abusive discussion patterns, I can strongly recommend the "Alt-Right Playbook" - I don't generally recommend videos, but these are very information-dense and incredibly informative and well-explained | 15:40:57 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | (the tactics are not unique to the alt-right, but they are most actively exploited by them currently) | 15:41:15 |
| Jonas Chevalier | right now, since we're not under direct threat, I think it's better to avoid that language and the sense of impending doom and suspicion to each-other that comes with it | 15:42:02 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | In reply to @domenkozar:matrix.org
I wonder though, isn't that bigotry? it's not. "bigotry" and "exclusion" are two different things - the main determining factor is something along the lines of "is this one's fundamental identity, or is it a deliberate choice?" | 15:42:03 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | it's a bit more nuanced in reality (is 'being a murderer' always a choice? for example), but as a rule of thumb it works well enough to understand the distinction | 15:42:35 |
| Domen KoΕΎar | So it's allowed to be prejudiced based ona sum of identify but not on a sum of deliberate choices? | 15:43:46 |
 GallantChef | In my experience, it's the "if you don't subscribe to the belief of X then you're a bigot/racist/fascist/etc." that drives people to extremism, rather than rescues them from it | 15:43:55 |
| Jonas Chevalier | I think we all want to get back to a positive environment where we enjoy hacking on Nix. Being able to escape from the reality of the world is an important feature that I get from hacking on the project. | 15:43:57 |
| GallantChef | Enshrining something like that in writing would actually encourage extremism rather than combat it | 15:44:09 |
| Domen KoΕΎar | Our choices are limited by our own beliefs π€ | 15:44:38 |
| GallantChef | Further more, prescribing correct belief systems and incorrect ones isn't conducive towards forming a moderation team | 15:44:49 |
| GallantChef | This is a fundamentally non-partisan issue | 15:44:56 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | Domen KoΕΎar: in the case of alt-right ideology specifically, it is certainly a choice to express it outwardly - people generally have the option to not adhere to it, or at the very least treat it as "yes this is what I grew up in but I'm working on it", and so I consider it reasonable to hold people accountable for it. in the context of a decidedly harmful ideology, which means there's a threat to the community, the decision then becomes "this is not welcome here" | 15:45:11 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | one "metric" I often use is "does this person's presence in the community constitute a net positive or a net negative effect on that community?" | 15:45:52 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | folks who unabashedly adhere to alt-right ideology fall far on the "net negative" side of that spectrum almost without exception | 15:46:23 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | (almost always also in ways that are not directly connectable to "alt-right ideology", like a general unwillingness to consider other people's point of view in technical discussions for example) | 15:47:13 |
| GallantChef | I'm asking in good faith, just as you demonize the alt-right, can we demonize AuthLeft? | 15:47:22 |
| GallantChef | Fundamentally that's what the reaction against RFC0098 is, a reaction against AuthLeft | 15:47:49 |
| GallantChef | I want to see a moderate, non-partisan solution to moderation | 15:48:05 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | GallantChef: I am personally strongly opposed to the authoritarian "left" (though I do not really consider them "left" personally) - however, considering that they are not a dominant social or political force, they are pretty much irrelevant from a community management perspective | 15:48:06 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | this does not apply to the alt-right | 15:48:17 |
| GallantChef | That's interesting | 15:48:29 |
 piegames | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
one "metric" I often use is "does this person's presence in the community constitute a net positive or a net negative effect on that community?" This. I noticed that many of the more vocal and hostile actors in all those heated discussions aren't actually that involved in the community. However in the other direction that's far more difficult: just because a person is invaluable to the community doesn't allow them to be a total ass. | 15:48:33 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | who, especially in privacy/security circles, come rolling in at a ridiculous rate | 15:48:38 |
| joepie91 π³οΈβπ | also, to be clear, I am not suggesting a blanket ban on alt-right ideology in the NixOS community - I have not yet seen a reason to need to do so | 15:49:06 |
