| 4 Nov 2021 |
 @joepie91:pixie.town | Jan Tojnar: in practice it's unfortunately not that consistent, but that's a discussion that definitely veers away from the topic of this room | 14:53:44 |
 tomberek | So…. where are we? Did we make any progress? | 14:54:09 |
 @zimbatm:numtide.com | IMO this happened because most of the participants in favour of the RFC are LGBT-related. | 14:54:43 |
| tomberek | There is a similar thing with 111. | 14:55:11 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | It's really unfortunate that we have camps like that | 14:55:36 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | also, I want to highlight one thing here: the reason I am talking about 'good faith' vs. 'bad faith' is two-fold:
- it's not strongly tied to any particular political or personal identities, it is entirely about how an individual chooses to engage with a community, and
- because it is about a choice of engagement, it is not immutable; as long as you think in behavioural choices rather than 'bad' identities, there is always a path towards resolution, towards understanding other people's experiences better and working out differences
| 14:56:06 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | and while there are specific political identities and groups which are strongly driven by deliberate bad-faith behaviour, the topic of moderation can be discussed without focusing on those groups specifically | 14:56:49 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | so I would much, much prefer not to turn this into a left vs. right vs. whatever debate :) | 14:57:11 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | One criteria I like to use is whenever a conversation is productive or not | 14:57:15 |
| tomberek | Jon is proposing an alternative approach to CoC. Thoughts? | 14:57:32 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | It's subjective but also falls into "good faith" "bad faith" | 14:57:37 |
 jonringer | In reply to @tomberek:matrix.org
Jon is proposing an alternative approach to CoC. Thoughts? RFC 114 is an CoC. It just has very different wording | 14:57:57 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | Jonas Chevalier: I agree that that is a good metric to determine whether some kind of moderation or community management is needed at all in a specific situation, yes. actually determining the instigator(s) and/or points of conflict requires more than that, though | 14:58:44 |
| jonringer | And it focuses around behaviors of an individual, not politically charged wording like "social normals", "fascism", or "bigotry" | 14:58:45 |
| jonringer | * And it focuses around behaviors of an individual, not politically charged wording like "social norms", "fascism", or "bigotry" | 14:59:11 |
| tomberek | “Socially charged” might be better. | 14:59:31 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | Is it possible to evaluate effects based on mechanics rather than values? | 15:00:09 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | err, I just realized I should've probably said this explicitly earlier: in my experience, almost any conflict situation in a community, no matter how much of a fight and how many people are involved, has one or two instigators - identifying them and removing them from the conversation (through a ban or otherwise) is almost always enough to turn a conversation productive again | 15:00:25 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | hence why I mentioned 'instigators' above | 15:00:35 |
| jonringer | In reply to @zimbatm:numtide.com
Is it possible to evaluate effects based on mechanics rather than values? Are you talking about "if this then that" punishment? | 15:00:38 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | In reply to @zimbatm:numtide.com
Is it possible to evaluate effects based on mechanics rather than values? not sure I understand what you mean with this. can you give an example? | 15:01:08 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | Not the punishment part, more the evaluation method | 15:01:09 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | Please give me some room for unrefined thoughts :) | 15:01:31 |
| tomberek | There are some heuristics, imperfect, but productive. Rust CoC mentions a few. Names that are not allowed, question mod behavior in private, etc. | 15:03:22 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | I think a lot of uncertainty comes from applying morals, which are personal, to a specific situation.
What I noticed is that if I start evaluating conversations based on their effects instead, it becomes much less personal. For example I noticed that blaggacao messages take a lot of energy for me to parse. It's not personal but his personal communication style is difficult to me. Once I explained this to him, I think he understood and didn't take it personally.
Another advantage of that approach is that I didn't have to attribute any intent behind the issue. | 15:04:58 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | * I think a lot of uncertainty comes from applying morals, which are personal, to a specific situation.
What I noticed is that if I start evaluating conversations based on their effects instead, it becomes much less personal. For example I noticed that blaggacao messages take a lot of energy for me to parse. It's not personal but his personal communication style is difficult to me. Once I explained this to him, I think he understood and didn't take it personally.
Another advantage of that approach is that I didn't have to attribute any intent behind the issue. In fact I quite believe that the intent behind the original messages were coming from a good place. | 15:07:27 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | Just think about it :) | 15:10:18 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | Jonas Chevalier: right, I understand what you mean now. I think that is indeed the correct way to handle conflicts with someone who is acting in good faith; and this is usually also the first step that experienced moderators take in trying to resolve conflict in a community.
however, it usually falls down when dealing with bad actors in one specific place: acknowledging and accepting other people's experiences. for this to work, the 'offender' (for lack of a better term) needs to be willing to accept that the 'victim' is experiencing things in the way they say they are, and especially where bigotry is involved that usually doesn't happen - with the 'offender' instead choosing to trivialize the 'victim's experiences
| 15:10:23 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | (or, in worse cases, applying something like DARVO, and claiming that the victim's experiences are made up purely to harm the offender) | 15:11:14 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | the nice this is that we can extend that benefit of the doubt to everybody. then we can set boundaries for behaviours that are unproductive. | 15:12:06 |
