| 4 Nov 2021 |
 joepie91 🏳️🌈 | which is usually the case, but it often only takes one person who isn't acting in good faith to make things go bad very quickly | 14:35:33 |
 @zimbatm:numtide.com | even the people above that were labelled toxic, are just people. behind the words are legitimate fears | 14:35:49 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | we have to acknowledge that, and also john's concerns | 14:36:50 |
 Jan Tojnar | I guess we (libertarian types) have the tendency to always extrapolate the actions to the worst case scenario, even though we might be completely in agreement on specifics with the today’s well-meaning left, we do not know who will come after them. | 14:36:56 |
 tomberek | You are suggesting large disruptions are necessary to our community norms, in order to prevent large disruptions. Some are seeing this conversation as a disruption, one in which there has not been a lot of empathetic behavior, impacting newcomers. What gives this disruption the moral high ground to occur and not others? | 14:37:00 |
 GallantChef | The belief of righteousness is what justifies it, hence why our friend has almost nothing that they're uncertain about | 14:37:31 |
| GallantChef | When you're arguing from a position of already being correct, it's difficult to lose an argument | 14:37:46 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | Jonas Chevalier: I'm certainly aware of that - I don't think most people know this about me, but I have a long long history of helping people to 'deradicalize', functioning as an (albeit limited) support network for people trying to get out of abusive right-extremist communities and the like, mediating between them and communities they have been removed from in the past, and so on. but none of that can work until the person in question shows themselves open to genuine good-faith conversation | 14:38:30 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | I also do not describe to the view of toxic people being fundamentally, immutably toxic | 14:39:12 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | * I also do not subscribe to the view of toxic people being fundamentally, immutably toxic | 14:39:19 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | however: that does not change that I don't hesitate to take moderation actions to protect a broader community either | 14:39:41 |
| GallantChef | Perhaps your view is related to your vocation, and by dealing with extremists, you perceive extremism in places where perhaps there isn't any. That's me giving you the benefit of the doubt | 14:39:47 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | nor does it change that I am very explicit about calling out harmful behaviour | 14:39:53 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | joepie91 🏳️🌈: I also get a sense that your position are generally strongly held, it doesn't leave a lot of room for people to be wrong | 14:40:36 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | In reply to @gallantchef:matrix.foxears.life
Perhaps your view is related to your vocation, and by dealing with extremists, you perceive extremism in places where perhaps there isn't any. That's me giving you the benefit of the doubt this is actually almost right; but rather than there "not being any extremism", it's more that I know the extremism well enough to recognize both the broader fallout that comes from it, and the roads that lead to it | 14:41:03 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | and at that stage it is not extremism, correct | 14:41:17 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | but it is still often harmful, and when left unchecked can very rapidly become extremism | 14:41:30 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | one thing I noticed with the Internet is that each group, left to their own device, and with nobody to contradict them, it going to become more extreme in their position | 14:42:39 |
 jonringer | In reply to @joepie91:pixie.town
I mean, I can think of at least one person in the NixOS community (or well, previously in the NixOS community) who was decidedly peddling fascist ideology and who went off the deep end during the freenode drama I would love to see some logs | 14:43:02 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | this is true both for the left and the right, and the religious people, and whatever | 14:43:11 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | In reply to @zimbatm:numtide.com
joepie91 🏳️🌈: I also get a sense that your position are generally strongly held, it doesn't leave a lot of room for people to be wrong strongly held ideology of inclusivity, weakly held views on how to get there. but with how socially dysfunctional most of the tech world is, it's not hard to get to a point where you understand social dynamics better than almost anyone else joining in the conversation, and then you run into an expertise imbalance. this happens much, much less to me outside of tech | 14:43:14 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | so when we have people reacting against the "woke" it's really a reaction against the most extremist positions | 14:44:17 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | this then feeds back as an attack against the group, and creates a never-ending feedback loop | 14:44:58 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | and with 'expertise imbalance' I mean the thing that I'm sure all of you have experienced at some point, where you are experienced in some (technical) topic and know why the naive solutions won't work, and so when someone inexperienced engages with you in discussion and suggests that naive solution, you already know that it cannot work and why, and if this happens enough then they will necessarily perceive you as 'impossible to argue with' | 14:45:00 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | for me, one of those topics is social/community dynamics | 14:45:30 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | In reply to @zimbatm:numtide.com
so when we have people reacting against the "woke" it's really a reaction against the most extremist positions the problem with the "woke" thing specifically is that it's a strawman; a degree of extremist ideology is ascribed to people that they do not actually adhere to, and that (for the most part) doesn't exist anywhere outside of the narratives of 'opponents' | 14:46:44 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | there are very, very few people that you could genuinely call "left extremists". they exist, I have met some of them, I have argued with them, but they are rare and not remotely controlling the conversation | 14:47:20 |
| tomberek | That sounds a lot like, “I have all the answers and won’t listen to people I perceive as being uninformed.” Can you see how that behavior is not helping here? It’s counter productive to your own goals it seems. | 14:47:24 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | tomberek: I don't "have all the answers". but if someone brings up an excessively naive view of social dynamics that's demonstrably wrong, and I can explain in detail why it is wrong and where it fails, what would you expect me to do? pretend to listen and pretend to consider something that I have considered and evaluated years ago already? I would consider that dishonest | 14:48:52 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | I would much rather dive into the topic, explain in an accessible way why it wouldn't work, and hopefully get more people actively involved in the topic and give them the tools to dive into it further - even if that's at the risk of people considering me personally an insufferable asshole | 14:49:49 |
