| 4 Nov 2021 |
 @joepie91:pixie.town | I have already attempted to do so above, and you have not engaged with that other than seemingly dismissing them as 'abstract' | 14:11:42 |
 @zimbatm:numtide.com | how can I understand something, if you cannot point me to the specific problems? | 14:12:07 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | unless you can indicate specifically what part is unclear, what part you don't understand, what part doesn't relate to your experience of the community, there's not really any way for me to clarify anything | 14:12:12 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | Jonas Chevalier: systemic issues are, by definition, not "specific problems" | 14:12:26 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | specific problems are what originates from systemic issues | 14:12:38 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | and we can either try to deal with an ever-faster-growing mountain of "specific problems" as the community grows, or we can address the source | 14:12:53 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | so who gets to define what is a problem, if we cannot talk about it. I really don't get it | 14:12:59 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | which is the systemic issue and necessarily more abstract | 14:13:01 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | let's say we start having more people asking stupid questions in the community | 14:13:45 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | Jonas Chevalier: we've been doing nothing but talking about it. but as long as you cannot engage with the explanations in a way that's not "dismissing them", there's no way to progress this | 14:13:52 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | that's my concern with your response | 14:14:03 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | at that point we can identify that as a systemic problem? | 14:14:11 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | you seem pretty much convinced that anything abstract isn't worth being concerned about | 14:14:15 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | In reply to @zimbatm:numtide.com
at that point we can identify that as a systemic problem? yes, and we have already reached this stage for some other things | 14:14:47 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | I'm saying that we cannot build a shared understanding of it | 14:14:54 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | unless we work it from specific examples | 14:15:06 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | as I've said, I've already given a specific example above | 14:15:17 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | two, in fact | 14:15:18 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | the IRC incident and the angry rants at the start of this room | 14:15:24 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | both are specific examples of "a small handful of people is creating an unwelcoming and exclusionary/oppressive atmosphere, and the community is currently not equipped to effectively deal with this" | 14:16:00 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | and when that handful of people grows bigger, as it inevitably will as the community scales, this will become a bigger and bigger issue and not something that can be resolved anymore through informal agreements on social norms | 14:16:44 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | just as an aside, do you realize you're part of that small vocal minority, just with a different viewpoint | 14:17:21 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | I very intentionally did not use the words "vocal minority", and no, I am very much not a part of the group of people I am referring to | 14:17:46 |
 @piegames:matrix.org |
so if you see anything, please send it my way
@zimbatm simply read the existing discussions, especially those that turned out to be controversial or straight up toxic.
Observe how for example people quote known industry misogynists and how they react when called out.
Observer how "we need a code of conduct" and "some communities need safe spaces" are still controversial topics.
How these topics are ridiculed and dismissed with the usual SJW blabla.
And this doesn't only happen in discussions around these topics. Read for example the IRC/Matrix RFC and Discourse for some counter examples.
| 14:17:58 |
| @piegames:matrix.org | *
so if you see anything, please send it my way
Jonas Chevalier simply read the existing discussions, especially those that turned out to be controversial or straight up toxic.
Observe how for example people quote known industry misogynists and how they react when called out.
Observer how "we need a code of conduct" and "some communities need safe spaces" are still controversial topics.
How these topics are ridiculed and dismissed with the usual SJW blabla.
And this doesn't only happen in discussions around these topics. Read for example the IRC/Matrix RFC and Discourse for some counter examples.
| 14:18:13 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | you are focusing on the mechanism, not the message behind it - classifying me together with said people because "you're all loud", but the loudness isn't the problem here, the oppressive and broadly unwelcoming subtext is | 14:18:19 |
| @zimbatm:numtide.com | I think there is something fundamental that is different in our understanding of the world | 14:19:14 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | Jonas Chevalier: almost certainly - but that is why I want to engage further on the topic, and why an outright dismissal of it as 'abstract' frustrates me, because that doesn't allow for aligning our understanding | 14:19:50 |
 tomberek | “as soon as it might make new people uncomfortable” is a very low bar. We can apply this very conversation as making many new people uncomfortable. With a bar that low, everything is potentially a problem and selectively picking out what is bad behavior becomes it’s own problem. | 14:20:25 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | tomberek: that is not what I said. | 14:20:49 |
