| 4 Nov 2021 |
 joepie91 🏳️🌈 | as I have stated above, that isn't the problem. the problem is that we, as a community, do not have a durable way/culture to deal with bad actors. | 14:08:48 |
 Jonas Chevalier | so they're really empty claims then | 14:08:49 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | Jonas Chevalier: I very strongly get the impression that you are making no effort to actually understand the problem, and are rather looking for something that lets you dismiss the claims and "move on" | 14:09:27 |
| Jonas Chevalier | not at all | 14:09:46 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | then why are you so quick to jump to "they are empty claims then" while barely giving me any opportunity to clarify anything, and while the discussion is about systemic problems that you seem unwilling to recognize because they don't fit your very specific and immediate frame of what constitutes a 'problem'? | 14:10:28 |
| Jonas Chevalier | ok we're back into rhetoric territory | 14:10:52 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | it's clear that you would prefer for there not to be conflict on this topic, and that is no different for me | 14:10:55 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | but that doesn't make the problem go away | 14:11:00 |
| Jonas Chevalier | please explain the systemic issues then | 14:11:15 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | I have already attempted to do so above, and you have not engaged with that other than seemingly dismissing them as 'abstract' | 14:11:42 |
| Jonas Chevalier | how can I understand something, if you cannot point me to the specific problems? | 14:12:07 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | unless you can indicate specifically what part is unclear, what part you don't understand, what part doesn't relate to your experience of the community, there's not really any way for me to clarify anything | 14:12:12 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | Jonas Chevalier: systemic issues are, by definition, not "specific problems" | 14:12:26 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | specific problems are what originates from systemic issues | 14:12:38 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | and we can either try to deal with an ever-faster-growing mountain of "specific problems" as the community grows, or we can address the source | 14:12:53 |
| Jonas Chevalier | so who gets to define what is a problem, if we cannot talk about it. I really don't get it | 14:12:59 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | which is the systemic issue and necessarily more abstract | 14:13:01 |
| Jonas Chevalier | let's say we start having more people asking stupid questions in the community | 14:13:45 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | Jonas Chevalier: we've been doing nothing but talking about it. but as long as you cannot engage with the explanations in a way that's not "dismissing them", there's no way to progress this | 14:13:52 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | that's my concern with your response | 14:14:03 |
| Jonas Chevalier | at that point we can identify that as a systemic problem? | 14:14:11 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | you seem pretty much convinced that anything abstract isn't worth being concerned about | 14:14:15 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | In reply to @zimbatm:numtide.com
at that point we can identify that as a systemic problem? yes, and we have already reached this stage for some other things | 14:14:47 |
| Jonas Chevalier | I'm saying that we cannot build a shared understanding of it | 14:14:54 |
| Jonas Chevalier | unless we work it from specific examples | 14:15:06 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | as I've said, I've already given a specific example above | 14:15:17 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | two, in fact | 14:15:18 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | the IRC incident and the angry rants at the start of this room | 14:15:24 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | both are specific examples of "a small handful of people is creating an unwelcoming and exclusionary/oppressive atmosphere, and the community is currently not equipped to effectively deal with this" | 14:16:00 |
| joepie91 🏳️🌈 | and when that handful of people grows bigger, as it inevitably will as the community scales, this will become a bigger and bigger issue and not something that can be resolved anymore through informal agreements on social norms | 14:16:44 |
