| 4 Nov 2021 |
 Irenes | if we don't address everything important, and leave an unjust status quo, that will set up the seeds of more stuff down the line, until and unless the people around at that point want to actually finish the work. | 09:48:02 |
| Irenes | it's just literally talking through all this stuff about how everyone comes from different perspectives and wants different things | 09:48:19 |
| Irenes | and figuring out what it takes for everyone to coexist without giving up the stuff that's important to them | 09:48:40 |
| Irenes | that's not the default | 09:48:50 |
| Irenes | because the world in general is not, you know... that work hasn't been done at the world scale | 09:49:09 |
| Irenes | but Nix is a community that's honestly in quite a good place, relatively speaking | 09:49:20 |
| Irenes | and I am confident we can all talk stuff through and do that work at the small scale | 09:49:33 |
| Irenes | it's a small enough place that that's feasible | 09:49:39 |
| Irenes | so that's my understanding of all this | 09:50:03 |
| Irenes | I realize some people will find it very abstract, and that's fine and I'm happy to talk through it more, although right at this moment I'm a little tired and not really able to give responses that require creativity | 09:50:28 |
| Irenes | (I was able to say the above because it's all stuff I've thought through many times, I didn't have to come up with it on the fly) | 09:50:47 |
 problems | i'll just say that i agree with what irenes and joepie91 have said here. the conflicts we've seen lately are a symptom of stuff that's already existed under the surface. it's good to talk about it in the open, so we can actually work to make it better | 09:57:02 |
 @joepie91:pixie.town | In reply to @irenes:matrix.org
because the world in general is not, you know... that work hasn't been done at the world scale I feel like this warrants highlighting a bit more - a lot of the conflict avoidance that I see around moderation topics seems to be founded on the idea that broader society has already figured stuff out, and so we should just 'go with it' (or as the Dutch would say, 'act normal') and it'll all work itself out... but in reality there's plenty of injustice, plenty of power imbalances, plenty of discrimination in broader society, and if we want the NixOS community to be a broadly welcoming and productive community, then it needs to be better than the societal status quo | 10:41:04 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | and that's what requires asking the uncomfortable questions | 10:41:34 |
 @jkarlson:kapsi.fi | is the scope of the problem in current nixos community described somewhere? | 10:54:27 |
| @jkarlson:kapsi.fi | like "Do not allow the Nix community to be a place for spreading ideas rooted in fascism or bigotry" does not quite seem likely | 10:55:33 |
| @jkarlson:kapsi.fi | I think wording like that is maybe a reason for the backlash, but I would not know | 10:56:03 |
| @jkarlson:kapsi.fi | or at least something that will catch attention | 10:57:02 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | In reply to @jkarlson:kapsi.fi
like "Do not allow the Nix community to be a place for spreading ideas rooted in fascism or bigotry" does not quite seem likely what do you mean with 'does not quite seem likely' here? | 11:28:50 |
| @jkarlson:kapsi.fi | as in not gab | 11:32:08 |
| @jkarlson:kapsi.fi | I probably read that more strong interpretation than you | 11:32:36 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | I mean, I can think of at least one person in the NixOS community (or well, previously in the NixOS community) who was decidedly peddling fascist ideology and who went off the deep end during the freenode drama | 11:32:46 |
| @jkarlson:kapsi.fi | * I probably read that stronger interpretation than you | 11:32:54 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | gab would be very much their speed | 11:33:11 |
 @piegames:matrix.org | I've seen people quote a known industry bigot and not back off when pointed out. And probably a lot of other stuff that I'd know if I had the strength to read all messages. | 11:33:26 |
| @jkarlson:kapsi.fi | that is anyway one part of the description of the scope of the problem | 11:33:52 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | (I'd rather not name them to prevent this discussion from becoming about a person rather than a broader concern, but I suspect that those who have been around on IRC know what I mean) | 11:33:56 |
| @jkarlson:kapsi.fi | how much harm did that person do and how were the current tools insufficient | 11:34:12 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | Emil Karlson: this feels like a very reactive approach to the problem, and I suspect you might be misunderstanding the purpose of RFC98 | 11:34:41 |
| @joepie91:pixie.town | the goal of this RFC is not to resolve an acute obvious problem; it's to observe that our community is growing and these kinds of things are beginning to surface, and we need to have the conversation about what we consider acceptable before it escalates | 11:35:16 |
