| 4 Nov 2021 |
 moritz.hedtke | I think it boils down to what can be ignored which is extremely subjective | 01:44:04 |
 jonringer | In reply to @moritz.hedtke:matrix.org
I think it boils down to what can be ignored which is extremely subjective obviously harassment and malicious shouldn't be tolerated. However, I've rarely seen this outside of very rare incidents | 01:45:27 |
| moritz.hedtke | In reply to @jonringer:matrix.org
obviously harassment and malicious shouldn't be tolerated. However, I've rarely seen this outside of very rare incidents That's what we all (hopefully) can agree on | 01:45:58 |
| jonringer | And generally they are just an individual acting out. Not some greater plot of privileged individuals to oppress a minority | 01:46:26 |
 tomberek | The subjectivity is somewhat bounded. It is not completely arbitrary. | 01:47:01 |
| moritz.hedtke | In reply to @jonringer:matrix.org
And generally they are just an individual acting out. Not some greater plot of privileged individuals to oppress a minority I don't want to speak for others but I think there are people who would disagree (but are sleeping) | 01:47:46 |
| jonringer | I think there's way too much generalization going on and any meaning is being lost by shades of gray | 01:47:49 |
| jonringer | I'm absolutely sure there are people who disagree. And I'm sure I'm part of that "privileged" oppressor group | 01:48:30 |
| moritz.hedtke | In reply to @tomberek:matrix.org
The subjectivity is somewhat bounded. It is not completely arbitrary. Sure but not bounded enough that I think it's easy to write down withouth everyone disagreeing | 01:49:22 |
| tomberek | What is reasonable is something that develops over time. | 01:50:00 |
| moritz.hedtke | Which seems like one of the main problem of all the efforts here. That there always are (lots) of people who won't like the approach taken | 01:50:06 |
| tomberek | Policy, banning, moderation, community discussions, etc all move that line back and forth. | 01:50:50 |
| tomberek | It establishes over time a standard of what is considered reasonable to ignore, and what rises above that and needs to be dealt with in some other way. | 01:52:22 |
| moritz.hedtke | So no RFC? :-) | 01:54:20 |
| tomberek | The underlying disagreement seems to be that people vehemently don't see that line drawn close to each other, or in what direction it should move, or even how that moving should take place. | 01:54:21 |
| tomberek | In such a situation, the best thing is often to trust in people to make decisions, and try to set things up such that that trust is not abused. | 01:57:02 |
| jonringer | In reply to @moritz.hedtke:matrix.org
So no RFC? :-) I'm going to get the ball rolling on them, then step back from all platforms but github | 01:57:46 |
| jonringer | I'm just, tired of all the drama around people wanting a safe place. But only seeing the same people be responsible for the most inflammatory comments and dialouge. | 01:59:05 |
| moritz.hedtke | I hope we manage to at least codify the common denominator of guidelines / rules | 01:59:14 |
| jonringer | In reply to @moritz.hedtke:matrix.org
I hope we manage to at least codify the common denominator of guidelines / rules That's RFC #1 | 01:59:25 |
| jonringer | Well, the guidelines/values. Rules and enforcement will be a different RFC | 02:00:29 |
| tomberek | moritz.hedtke: with that goal in mind, and with the goal to find a consensus, would you write RFC98 as is? | 02:03:59 |
| jonringer | And "rules" are more like, not abiding by the values. and magnitude of punishment will be delegated by to a moderation team | 02:04:04 |
| moritz.hedtke | In reply to @tomberek:matrix.org
moritz.hedtke: with that goal in mind, and with the goal to find a consensus, would you write RFC98 as is? You mean jonringers plan? | 02:11:16 |
| tomberek | No, 98. | 02:11:33 |
| moritz.hedtke | In reply to @tomberek:matrix.org
No, 98. I think 98 is too ambiguous in it's values (didn't read it super throughouly yet). I like the idea of a larger team that takes care of the community though. I could imagine that first codyfing only the values/guidelines and then creating some kind of team that should enforce them like I understand jonringers current proposal could work better | 02:15:15 |
| tomberek | Would you like to look at 102? It is far more minimal. Perhaps too much so, but it's an attempt to establish a common ground. | 02:16:26 |
| jonringer | In reply to @tomberek:matrix.org
Would you like to look at 102? It is far more minimal. Perhaps too much so, but it's an attempt to establish a common ground. I don't think 102 really has enough "teeth" to exercise it's moderation power. If anything I think i just codifies the existing system | 02:17:30 |
| jonringer | Then again, I read it after 7 hours of arguing on the internet | 02:18:08 |
| tomberek | Agreed, perhaps it's the (step 1). But I think if we keep arguing over 98, we'll never get anywhere. | 02:18:35 |
